PDGA E D Brian Graham posted in another thread --
"It should also be noted that areas of the country with a low percentage of members, will be eligible to apply for a competition endowment that will reduce these non-member fees and make it worthwhile to sanction an event. "

This is reaching but here goes....

This is our official request to hold a PDGA event here in New Orleans. LA under the Competition Endowment program.
Our event will be held March 15, 2008 on our 22 hole course in Lafreniere Park.
It would be our pleasure to be the first non-summit event to operate under these guidelines.

We held the Pot of Gold in 2007 and were unable to reach an understanding with the PDGA regarding sanctioning.
We purchased our own insurance, scrambled to get sponsorship and managed to accommodate 110 participants for a one day event.
On top of all this we donated $1,000 to the American Red Cross.
The good folks at Marshall Street designated us as a qualifier for their little MSDGC event. (We can not thank them enough)
Roughly guessing, only 30-40 of these participants are current PDGA members.

This seems like a perfect fit for our under developed PDGA area and the "Competition Endowment" idea.

respectfully
steve timm
2008 New Orleans Pot of Gold TD

Why don't you send your request directly to the tour manager via the contact link? Your politicking is getting tiresome.

I think posting here may be more effective than emailing David Gentry directly - although I would recommend doing both. The Endowment program, as far as I know, is not yet published. Perhaps a little heat applied gently via the MB will help get this potentially very helpful program into reality quicker.

I think posting here may be more effective than emailing David Gentry directly - although I would recommend doing both. The Endowment program, as far as I know, is not yet published. Perhaps a little heat applied gently via the MB will help get this potentially very helpful program into reality quicker.



And perhaps the politics of this approach will start to frustrate the rest of the membership, making us wonder why we pay the full rate just to subsidize malcontents. I'm getting tired already of the PDGA bashers coming forward with their hands out, and can easily name a couple of situations in Wisconsin that would be worthy yet the people involved haven't resorted to such tactics.

Oh, as a clarification, I'm not referring to anyone here in particular as a malcontent. I just see this process fostering the situation.

Tim,

The Competition Endowment Program has many good purposes, none of which are to give handouts to malcontents. The primary purpose of the program is to encourge events that would not normally not sanction to be a sanctioned event. These include charity events and events in developing areas, which do not yet have a high percentage of PDGA members.

I have run several non-sanctioned charity events over the years. The reason I chose to not sanction them was because I wanted more of the proceeds to benefit the charity. The office gets many requests each year to support charity events. The CEP is a way in which we can support charity events while at the same time increasing the number of sanctioned events. It would also be silly for a TD in a town who just installed a brand new course, and does not yet have any or many PDGA members, to run a sanctioned event because nearly all of the participants would be required to pay higher fees to get a taste of PDGA competition. We want to encourage these players to play in sanctioned events so they can see the benefits. Once they realize what we can offer, the hope is that they will join the PDGA as a member.

The details of the program are still being worked out and no, ...posting on the message board will not apply heat and speed up the process. We prioritize everything here at the office and we are currently working on other projects at this time, with a higher priority. The details of this program will be released in plenty of time for 2008.

Regards,
Brian Graham

Sorry, but I'm starting to have a hard time with the concept that a one-time fee reduction is going to change opinions out there and make PDGA lovers out of some of the groups that don't see the value. Either the 'endowment' becomes permanent in these areas, or the problem is just deferrerd until the reduction no longer is in effect. In the meantime, we get to tell people in areas of higher PDGA support that we're sorry they aren't eligible for the same deal, and thanks for allowing part of your contribution help out those in areas that hate the org.

Developing areas is one thing. Areas that have developed an anti-PDGA culture is another.

malcontents??? thats a fairly strong word. who is it that you are labelling in this fashion?

surely it is NOT a person who is approaching us about a grant. such a person is reaching out and should be engaged with respect. are you that worried that a real malcontent might someday hole out on a basket purchased through a PDGA grant?

I am not referring to basket grants. I am referring fee reductions disguised as 'competition endowment grants'.

You should be able to fill in the rest. You've been here long enough.

Developing areas is one thing. Areas that have developed an anti-PDGA culture is another.



I totally agree. These jokers bashing the PDGA are asking them to bend over backwards. Get off your arse and promote the PDGA. Run more events. Do what it takes to make it happen. Check out this link. In 2001 we had basically had no PDGA members around here. Now it's unusual for our league and tournament players not to be PDGA members. We ran more events and promote the PdGA in a positive manner. Help the game grow! http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemi d=37

Just out of curiousity ... let's say the PDGA decides to "bend over backwards" and "endow" this Pot O' Gold tournament ... how much money does that cost the PDGA? Will they be sending a bunch of the money collected from "full rate" members to New Orleans? Or will the TD in New Orleans be sending money to the PDGA, albeit not as much as a "full flavor" tournament.

Also is Lousiana one of those "areas that have developed an anti-PDGA culture" or could it be that the vast majority of the players in Louisiana have absolutely no ax whatsoever to grind with the PDGA?

Regardless, it sure seems easy to paint with an overbroad brush, especially since, as Brian pointed out, the details of the program haven't even been released yet.

Who knows, it might actually work out. And if the detractors still feel the same way then, after the program has proved its merits, perhaps "malcontent" is a good word after all.

Wag more, bark less.

malcontents??? thats a fairly strong word. who is it that you are labelling in this fashion?

<font color="red"> I learned this trick from a Board Member:

Malcontent - Discontented or dissatisfied,


Now I'll skip the rest of the dictionary but I'd hardly say this is a strong accusation - label - or anything else. On the other hand, I'd definitely label Trimm as a Malcontent. If I were to guess, I'd say he'd wear that title with honor. </font>

surely it is NOT a person who is approaching us about a grant. such a person is reaching out and should be engaged with respect. are you that worried that a real malcontent might someday hole out on a basket purchased through a PDGA grant?



<font color="red">The notion that this apparently insincere request for a grant is something that deserves respect is amusing. Thanks for the laugh. </font>

chris- first off, let's not use this particular event as an example- it is a charity event- i am all for the pdga reducing fees to charity events everywhere.

that being said, what justification is there for a non-charity event in LA,AL,MS,etc to have to pay any lower fees to the organization than an event in VA? you were around virginia long enough ago to know that this area was at one point basically "undeveloped" in terms of pdga participation relative to NC,DE,etc. - through the commitment of the organizers here that is now far from the case. (in 1996 there were 2 pdga events in VA(there were certainly more in AL at that point), now there are around 30)

while there is no anti-pdga culture among the players in the south, there has long been such a culture among the organizers, or at least that's how it appears from here.

prolly the same justification we use for international members to get a discount, and to fund the international program at a loss.

prolly the same justification we use for international members to get a discount, and to fund the international program at a loss.



No, not a valid comparison. Again, you have to consider that developing areas is one thing. Areas that have developed an anti-PDGA culture is another. In the second case, once the 'endowment' is done, you are stuck with pretty much the same situation. Either that or you never end the 'endowment'. Along the way you frustrate the good stewards who have been and continue to pay full rate.

how does the "this offer applies to new customers only" retail approach work?

if the pdga cannot convince the endowed players of its value, then the program will fail. if we can, then it will increase membership, spread the reach of the org, and help consolidate and confirm the pdga as the central organizing body of the sport.

I think John raises a very important point. Is there really an anti-PDGA sentiment amongst players in supposed anti-PDGA areas? I've never seen it in any meaningful way except in a handful of leaders and mouth-pieces. The most I've seen is an offhand attitude of "aren't you guys the ones who take the whole thing a little too seriously?" If anything, I'd say the power of the SN lies in having a dedicated body of organizers who work hard and offer a clear structure as opposed to a dam the bridges I'll never support the PDGA attitude.

If we judge the prevalent attitude of players in an area by the handful of posters from that area who come here and to other MBs, we are making a mistake.

how does the "this offer applies to new customers only" retail approach work?

if the pdga cannot convince the endowed players of its value, then the program will fail. if we can, then it will increase membership, spread the reach of the org, and help consolidate and confirm the pdga as the central organizing body of the sport.



It works poorly and ticks off the existing customers. That's why you rarely see it. And its starting to look like its not the 'customers' that we are appeasing, but the anti-pdga organizers who are being the loudest about it.

I would be respectfully interested to know in what way you were unable to reach an understanding ? I'm especially curious as I see a schedule with a several hundred events last year that were able to do so.

Congrats on a successful tourney!


We held the Pot of Gold in 2007 and were unable to reach an understanding with the PDGA regarding sanctioning.

It's very encouraging to read your post BDH and to hear that there are strong possibilities of reconciliation between the PDGA and SNC.

I don't know why most all of the SNC events stop at the LA border to Texas. I'd certainly play in more of them if there were any around here.

Thanks for making a thoughtful and informative post.

I am hopeful the PDGA can reach out to both the SN and NEFA regions. Hopefully the Competition Endowment Program can entice TDs in these regions (and even let's say the Lehigh Valley DGC region, which hosted the 2005 Pro Worlds but now hosts monthly unsanctioned tourney's due to the PDGA fees) to host more PDGA sanctioned events.

It'll take bending on both sides, but I believe it can be accomplished.

There has been an increase in dual sanctioned events in Texas over the past couple of years.

Chris LaSonde #11585
Mobile, AL, USA
Chris LaSonde's PDGA membership is not current.


I thought you had to be current to post on this board.

I like Chris a lot, but that's an interesting point. Weird. Probably a database glitch.

But, hey, you can co-opt someone else's identity and illegally post slander on here, and that doesn't get stopped. If you view the PDGA in a somewhat negative light, at least once in a while, it seems like you're golden to the moderators. (Unless your first name is Mike.)

C'mon Terry. Our decisions (which can go through 3 levels of moderating) are never biased depending on the poster. I'm sorry you feel this way..

And now back to our regularly scheduled program (remember, this is the Pot o Gold thread..)

the lvdc was most definitely not the host of the 2005 worlds.

Tim,

The Competition Endowment Program has many good purposes, none of which are to give handouts to malcontents. The primary purpose of the program is to encourge events that would not normally not sanction to be a sanctioned event. These include charity events and events in developing areas, which do not yet have a high percentage of PDGA members.

I have run several non-sanctioned charity events over the years. The reason I chose to not sanction them was because I wanted more of the proceeds to benefit the charity. The office gets many requests each year to support charity events. The CEP is a way in which we can support charity events while at the same time increasing the number of sanctioned events. It would also be silly for a TD in a town who just installed a brand new course, and does not yet have any or many PDGA members, to run a sanctioned event because nearly all of the participants would be required to pay higher fees to get a taste of PDGA competition. We want to encourage these players to play in sanctioned events so they can see the benefits. Once they realize what we can offer, the hope is that they will join the PDGA as a member.

The details of the program are still being worked out and no, ...posting on the message board will not apply heat and speed up the process. We prioritize everything here at the office and we are currently working on other projects at this time, with a higher priority. The details of this program will be released in plenty of time for 2008.

Regards,
Brian Graham



"a taste of pdga competition" what exactly is that? having experienced both pdga and non-pdga competition, i find them virtually indistinguishable.

kevin

<font color="blue"> [personal attack removed] </font>

the lvdc was most definitely not the host of the 2005 worlds.



REGION, Kevin. Region.

The Lehigh Valley DGC Ammo series plays at each of the 2005 Worlds courses: Nock, LL, Tinicum, and Jordan, no?

can you spell region out for me again frederick? and no, the "region" didn't host the worlds. two guys hosted the worlds, are they a REGION?

two guys hosted the worlds, are they a REGION?



That's an insult to all the member clubs of the Mid-Atlantic Disc Golf Club, or MADC, who joined together to support the Pro Worlds 2005 event. Members of MADC affiliate clubs such as the Friends of Sedgley Woods, Bucks County Disc Golf Alliance, Lancaster Area Flying Disc Society, Delaware Disc Golfers, Lehigh Valley Disc Club, etc. donated hundreds of hours of volunteer work for this event. Many took a week's vacation from their jobs to be on-site to support the 300+ competitors who took part in this event.

that may be jeff. however, your self-righteousness is perhaps even more egregious. i'm sure each member of the above-mentioned clubs can sleep well at night knowing that you are defending their honor. absolutely hilarious.

to get the discussion back on track. no amount of enticing on the part of the pdga will make up for its record on support, or more appropriately, lack of support for disc golf and grassroots disc golf. the record is shamelessly there.

until the member organization acts on behalf of its members rather than to simply augment itself we will still be where we are today. some clubs will buy in and others will not. it is obvious to many that what is good for the pdga is not always good for the sport. think membership dues and competitive structure.

the pdga is a monopoly like the old at&amp;t. in those days you couldn't go to another provider there wasn't any, you simply did without a phone. that is how it is. we'll just have to make due without a phone.

To imply that your region hasn't benefited from PDGA support is rather ungrateful. Any region that hosts a World Championship gets way more than their fair share of PDGA support in both direct and indirect benefits. Your area could run sanctioned events for the next 20 years and not repay what the PDGA has brought to your region via Worlds. Even though much of the work was done by locals, which those visiting appreciate, the locals and Park Departments spent more hours directly helping your courses get better as result of Worlds that wouldn't have been expended or expended as quickly as the typical pace of development without Worlds coming.

oh yeah that's right. rules again. :) when will we pay for those rules? we've been paying for years.

to be honest chuck, i'd say it was a break even at best. you don't presume to know all of the costs do you? it would be fair of you to admit that your perspective is more from the pdga perspective, no?

you can call me ungrateful, but i'd prefer the less tainted and more accurate adjective "realistic."

Don't bother, Chuck. Don't waste your breath if he's unable to understand that if not for Pro Worlds 2005, the local players wouldn't have the Little Lehigh Parkway course at all, and they'd still be playing the crappy Scherersville course across the street from the current Jordan Creek.

Duh.

Breakeven from a direct financial standpoint for the clubs related to cash but the value of benefits to the region goes way beyond that in terms of financial impact on the community, the standing of disc golf among elected and park officials, small businesses that benefited directly from the visitors, and fundamentally the park improvements themselves. I doubt the estimated $1 million direct and multiplying impact of an event like this came out of the pockets of the clubs. If you broke even, your region is way ahead. The PDGA contributes over $50K for a Pro Worlds by the time the direct financial contributions, bid process, advance visits, labor, travel, marshals &amp; volunteer expenses, video efforts and coordination get tallied. Some of that is repaid from sales of DVDs later. But your area continues to benfit since Media Active from your area has been doing the DVDs since the PW2005.

We are seeing the inherent weakness of this board.
It seems impossible to have a mature conversation.
Individual/regional issues cloud any rational thought.

I have made a request to David Gentry for our tourney.
The support of the few is appreciated.

Thread drifters, .... go somewhere else.

steve timm

"don't waste your breath," did you have your forearm pressed to your forehead as you typed that? do you want you me fan you? do you feel faint?

Good Luck, Steve. I'll be watching to see how this turns out.
rWc

database glitch ... I can post from my work computer but not from my home computer ... must be the cookies I ate or something.

Regardless, I need to be stopped ... my "Wag more, bark less" campaign is rebel talk, I tell ya.

(BTW I just loved that treatise from BH that concludes, in part, that the Civil War is one of the root causes of certain "malcontents/extremists" selecting the PDGA as their "chosen enemy." I guess in my case, it is the Revolutionary fervor of my childhood in Lexington, Massachusetts. Please, sir, could you give us an essay expounding on the colonists distrust of their English overlord as the roots of the rise of NEFA.)

And what is this hatred/extremist/malcontent/war/enemy language anyway? Has it become so much the way of life that everything must be polarized? Do we really need extremists on both sides?

That which unites us is far stronger than that which divides us.

Anyway, now that the glitch has been pointed out, my time here may be limited. If so ...

Wag more, bark less.

to get the discussion back on track. no amount of enticing on the part of the pdga will make up for its record on support, or more appropriately, lack of support for disc golf and grassroots disc golf. the record is shamelessly there.

until the member organization acts on behalf of its members rather than to simply augment itself we will still be where we are today. some clubs will buy in and others will not. it is obvious to many that what is good for the pdga is not always good for the sport. think membership dues and competitive structure.

the pdga is a monopoly like the old at&amp;t. in those days you couldn't go to another provider there wasn't any, you simply did without a phone. that is how it is. we'll just have to make due without a phone.



I'm just starting to catch up here but this is rich! So, how does the PDGA accomplish this monopoly? Is it the old fashioned Mafioso knee breaker thing, or is it that the financially drive the other guys out of business by keeping their prices so low aka Microsoft model? Oh wait, that doesn't fit with your their charging us so much position. Maybe it's that they get federal legislation passed that keeps them in power by buying political influence. That must be it. No wonder memberships cost so much. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Questions of the day: How many independent events are there in the country? How many local clubs with their own ratings systems are there? What is SN and MSDGC?

Now that I've had my laugh of the day, thank you dscmn, I can go back to work.

And what is this hatred/extremist/malcontent/war/enemy language anyway? Has it become so much the way of life that everything must be polarized? Do we really need extremists on both sides?



Nice. SN'ers throw the first punch and now pull a Rodney King.

well, by all means let's keep punching whatever else we do

Lyle, I don't keep track of sanctioned/unsanctioned disc golf events, but I do know there are probably more than 100 SN events every year. You're welcome to go to the site and count them. They're all online going back four or five years.

And I don't know of any "malcontents" here. We're all pretty content doing what we're doing. Nobody thinks they're missing out on anything. The players who want to go to worlds pay the membership fee, play a few events and go. The rest seem to be having a good time. A good example is the nearly 200 that played in Memphis this past weekend. Not bad for an "independent" event.

rWc****

171 at the Lee Naquin SN only this last weekend (has averaged 130 the last few years- nice bump thanks to amazing weather)

90 at the Copper Hills Classic PDGA/SN in September (capped to one course)

221 at the Dogwood Classic in May SN only

All 3 were fun events and hopefully met the needs and desires of our 160 members as well as the region. We offer both services here and strive to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

NO- best of luck, let us know how it works out.

Brian Friedman
2007 Memphis Disc Golf Club President
Dogwood / Copper Hills TD

So if everyone is so content, then why all the effort to get fees waived or reduced via 'endowments'? Is this temporary reduction in fees really going to change anything besides irk all that are still paying full rate?

I always saw this issue as the PDGA reaching out to US, not US reaching out to the PDGA. I can honestly live without having a PDGA event in our city. I have renewed so I could go to Bowling Green and Huntsville. Memphis was just a perk.

rWc****

Lyle, I don't keep track of sanctioned/unsanctioned disc golf events, but I do know there are probably more than 100 SN events every year. You're welcome to go to the site and count them. They're all online going back four or five years.

And I don't know of any "malcontents" here. We're all pretty content doing what we're doing. Nobody thinks they're missing out on anything. The players who want to go to worlds pay the membership fee, play a few events and go. The rest seem to be having a good time. A good example is the nearly 200 that played in Memphis this past weekend. Not bad for an "independent" event.

rWc****



I'd say that is exactly consistent with what I was saying.

Whatever Lyle. Maybe we'll apply for a "grant" and maybe not. I'd hate to "irk" you guys in Wisconsin. And really, it's not going to hurt us. And you really need to take your argument to the PDGA, since they're they ones "reaching out" to US. You really can't blame areas for taking advantage of what they're offering. Brian provided a good example of what we have down here. rWc****

How about looking at the big picture. Reintroducing the PDGA back into an area that is hot with NON-PDGA disc golfers. If the endowment progam assists in doing this, then I say BRAVO to the PDGA for formulating the program. As both a SN member and a PDGA member I would love to see an accord between the two factions, with as little bloodshed as possible. Those of you bashing Steve for making this request obviously don't know the man, or his love for the sport. I know Steve's request is to expand the PDGA back into SN areas is for the betterment of the sport. Those who think otherwise are being more narrowminded than some of those in SN.

Whatever Lyle. Maybe we'll apply for a "grant" and maybe not. I'd hate to "irk" you guys in Wisconsin. And really, it's not going to hurt us. And you really need to take your argument to the PDGA, since they're they ones "reaching out" to US. You really can't blame areas for taking advantage of what they're offering. Brian provided a good example of what we have down here. rWc****



It wouldn't be the SN or its people, but the actions by the PDGA that seem to favor one area over another that would irk us. Nothing against what you guys are trying to accomplish down there.

Actually, your message before concerning that it is the PDGA trying to initiate the action vs. the SN shed quite a bit of light on the situation. I understand a bit better now what Brian is trying to accomplish. Thanks for the insight.

In all fairness Kieffer, recognize that Wisconsin just got a bunch of PDGA benefits from hosting both World events. So I think it's reasonable to cut the PDGA some slack for perhaps helping out other areas with discounted fees. Of course, if those areas really wanted to get PDGA benefits, bidding to host PDGA major events would be one way to immediately boost the PDGA profile and benefits for an area.

... and hence my statement that I better understand what Brian is trying to accomplish.

Actually, the Brian I was referring to was Mr. Graham and what he is trying to accomplish with the competition endowments. But I do appreciate the comments, like what you are up to with the international community, and hope you are successful with it.

Best wishes for you in continuing the efforts and the optimism!

And people ask me why I only run small unsanctioned events these days.

That $10 non-member fee is not an intelligent decision in my view for the organization. I assume the intended result is to encourage more people to become members. What it feels like to the nonmember is that you are sticking it to them good. :p What I think will happen is you will force more tournaments to go unsanctioned to attract enough players, and thus have fewer opportunities to attract members. Why join if you can play without paying extra? This is the current situation in SN land and it just got worse for the PDGA. No sweat off my nose as I've scaled my efforts back to local 1 rounders charity events and such to try to grow the player base. I just think it's a bad move in terms of PDGA membership level and shoving people into the arms of organizations that don't appear to turn nonmembers upside down and shake the change out of their pockets. You may end up inadvertantly helping your own demise in the form of encouraging many SN like organizations. Time will tell.

BTW my signature wasn't created for this post but it sure do fit.

OK, I'll say it again.

There's a similar organization that plays a game with a disc that is actually on the PDGA's list of approved discs. They have twice as many members of their organization.

Like the PDGA, if you want to play in their national championship tournament you have to be a member.

Last time I looked, a membership was $40, $30 if you are a college student.

If you want to play a single sanctioned tournament, for at least the last 10 years, you've had to pay $10.

I'm talking, of course, about the Ultimate Players Association. And nobody complains about being "soaked" they either pay up or they join. Or they grumble and borrow $10 from a buddy, pay and that's it.

My UPA number is less than half my PDGA number... and UPA numbers are over 100k now...

Thanks Matt, one reason I pay that $50 fee is so Will and I can play the Huntsville PDGA's when the urge hits us. Oh, and Bowling Green. Personally, I'll probably renew my membership because I enjoyed the Memphis PDGA in September and I figure Birmingham will have one so if I decide to pay those I won't be looking at shelling out another $10-$20 to play. As far as hosting a PDGA event here (our first was in 1983 or '84 for those who care) I can't say that will happen. rWc****

brian, how many current upa members are there?

Whatever Lyle. Maybe we'll apply for a "grant" and maybe not. I'd hate to "irk" you guys in Wisconsin. And really, it's not going to hurt us. And you really need to take your argument to the PDGA, since they're they ones "reaching out" to US. You really can't blame areas for taking advantage of what they're offering. Brian provided a good example of what we have down here. rWc****




Wow! I didn't notice when they moved Houston to Wisconsin. Darn the weather here is nice! A little chilly though.

On the other hand, if your comment was meant to indicate that there is something wrong with them Northerners who just don't have enough acumen to understand the "real" situation, I might just agree with you. But then, they don't think Houston is in Wisconsin... :D


Of course if you apply for a grant and get it while moaning about how much the PDGA takes, you'd be upholding a long standing Southern tradition of complaining about taxes and how much money Washington takes from it's citizens while receiving the lion's share of benefits from the Federal Government.

This (http://www.upa.org/files/06_About_the_UPA_factsheet_low.pdf) FAQ says 22k members, not sure how current that # is although it also mentions 2004 revenue/expenses. Interesting note that 50% of the membership is in college but 55% have household income of &gt;$55k and 92% have college degrees.

Dues are
Regular - $40
College - $30
Youth (18-and-under) - $20

Ulty players make great golfers. Most players that whine about entry fees , usually, have not competed in any organized sports that have entry fees and annual dues.
Join a bowling league, a golf league, a little leage team, what ever. You have to pay to play. It's just part of organized sports.

I've played soccer my entire life and still do. I pay $140 per year for the two seasons in the year, that's around 15 or 16 games. My team will also travel to tournaments and the fee for each player is around $20 bucks. Winner gets a tee-shirt that reads :"Champion" and maybe a medal. But it's still only $20.

With the PDGA I pay $75 for the year. Then $100 for one PDGA tournament (Texas States) and $60+ for the one up in Shreveport. That's nearly $250 to play two weekends. It's not as beneficial to me as it is for those who only play PDGA tournaments and do so year round. I did expect to play more than one PDGA tournament this year, but the chips didn't fall the way I expected them to, so I only played a few.

My point is that I've played organized sports for 20+ years and I find it quite easy to complain about high fees. I might renew because I love playing the Texas States tournament, but I'll have to think about it first (correct me if I'm wrong, but I DO have to be a member to play Open there, right?). This is not a post bashing the PDGA, I'm just explaining that I don't get the benefit most PDGA members receive from renewing their membership.

Looks like you're comparing the cost of amateur soccer versus pro disc golf. Drop your PDGA dues and entry fee to get a closer comparison.

I wouldn't have to pay for entry fees to soccer tournament if I were a pro. I'd be getting a salary. I have no idea what dues a pro soccer player pays. I believe the teamss accountants deal with that.

Either way, the comparison you made originally isn't apples to apples which may be difficult to do anyway considering the variety of competition fees and mechanisms in other sports.

I know. I wasn't trying to compare the two. I was responding to Tom qho said people who complaing about fees usually haven't played organized sports. I have and do believe the dues are somewhat steep.

As for amateur soccer versus amateur disc golf, soccer is still much cheaper. Unless you're playing in an amateur select soccer team ... which mommy and daddy are paying for anyway. I will say this though, disc golf rewards you much better for your efforts, monetarily speaking. In soccer you feel a sense of accomplishment when you win a tournament because you've played well as a team for a grueling 5 games that weekend. In disc golf, you get loads of plastic when you do well.

I think it's tough comparing a team sport with an individual sport anyway. I think orienteering which is all amateurs might be a closer sports equivalent with individual competition on courses for different skill levels. Of course they have traditional am competition with ribbons for prizes compared with what we call ams. A big entry fee for orienteering is something like $20 and that includes meals sometimes. Just ribbons for prizes and everything is done by volunteers with fees paid for park reservations included.

Things are moving along.
A dual sanctioned Southern Nationals/PDGA event.
Never in question, local support is strong.
What is more important, payout, attendance or FOOD?
The $724 Gold Dollars awarded to Matt Orum was nice
but the best reviews we received were for the pulled
pork, wings, beverages and good times.

This will be another memorable New Orleans event.
I am sure MattyO is itching to defend his title...
Added cash to ALL pro divisions.
If you haven't made it to one of our tourneys, this is it.

The greatest party city in the world,
the most unique collection of DG characters,
and the chance to play a quality, challenging course.

What more could you ask for?
Call early and we will find you a place to crash.

thanks to all for making this happen
steve timm
td NO Pot of Gold
March 15, 2008
(504) 430-7919

I can't say enough about the food, Steve. What a FEAST! Yes, that is the proper word to describe the enormous buffet of incredible eats. It was hard to walk away from it, but there was one more round to play. Luckily there was still beaucoup for after the 2nd round.

I think that pot of gold would still be sitting in my room had I won it. The darn thing would have been too pretty to cash in. I mean, who else has a kettle full of gold sitting in their room? :D

Can't wait, Steve. I Love March in Louisiana.

fLYING J

Perfect name Jose
Here he is taking off
before he overate @ the lunch buffet.

http://www.fotojoeusa.com/POG2007/POG200733.jpg

thanks to Joe Todd for the pictures.

HA!

I'll be back next time with a brand new style. Not as cool but more effective, IMO. Oh, and I plan to birdie the lake hole in the long pin placement. WATCH OUT! Destroyer coming through.

If we judge the prevalent attitude of players in an area by the handful of posters from that area who come here and to other MBs, we are making a mistake.



Hear hear!

It�s funny how we rarely (never?) hear here (!) about the efforts of PDGA to support SN land, or �here� from SN players who wish there were more PDGA events in their area. Instead we get to try and cipher through what is mostly bombast.

Examples: 2-3 years ago PDGA had a request from the SNC � Ams Championships TD for 200 free rule books. Sounded like a great thing to do, the package was mailed off within 2 days, and the TD sent HQ a long email of thanks, including how much this was appreciated by the SN Am players, etc. And a year ago PDGA sent David Gentry to the SNCs at their request where issues were tabled and discussed. Now the PDGA is arranging for a summit/tournament at HQ with both SN and NEFA members. And yet, despite this last point the bombast from a handful continues � (yawn).

Not to mention the last years as PDGA ED every year I would receive more emails and phone calls from SN players who were wishing there were more PDGA events in their area.

Again, per my posting yesterday on PDGA Innovation Grants, all Im trying to do here is provide a more balanced perspective than that which is the �norm� re SN rep-resentation of PDGA in this forum.

That being said, my understanding (flawed though it may be) re the origins and vision of SN is as follows. Circa 1995, before my and anyone involved with PDGAs leadership of today�s time, a SN area rep lost the bid to host Am Worlds. In following up with a PDGA Board Member, he got an unexpected and unprofessional earful, and he walked away anti-PDGA as one might imagine. Whenever that happened, it was not a great day for either side, one that might conjure up say the year 1859 �

While my understanding is that person was key to the establishment of SN, it is not Jim Orum, who led the SN for many years and is revered as the father of SN. In discussing SN and PDGA in Augusta with Jim Orum and Brian Graham at the inaugural DGHOF Classic in Augusta in 2003. I remember Jim saying: �The SN has nothing against the PDGA. We want to do more with the PDGA. But we have asked our players what they want to do, and they like how the fees from our events go back to the players (SN Tour bonuses) and to the courses and building the game and the series in our area.�

Frankly, I understand this point of view completely and that was what I told Jim. It reflects classic development/ underdevelopment (or metropole/satellite) theory and the culture of the Deep South, which has a history of rebellion vs / mistrust of the �northeast/Washington� and thanks in not insignificant part to the Civil War, remains one of the poorest parts of the country.

Given people are somewhat poorer and resources somewhat harder to come by why wouldn�t you want to invest the earnings of the game in the South back into the South, rather than into a USA and wider system? And given 1861-65, not to mention the failed Am Worlds bid episode of way back, it should come as no surprise that the PDGA is the chosen enemy of some malcontents/extremists.

Bottom line. The issues are complex and there are people on both sides who are working harder than ever to find common ground and ways of building stronger relations and activities between SN and PDGA. So, given this is happening, why can�t we focus a little more here on the positive and the possible instead of beating the negative till its way out of context and does no good to anyone ?

Thanks

BDH



Wow, we're paying thousands of PDGA dollars for this "remarkable" insight from a consultant. What a bargain, eh?

Actually, I've been waiting for this.

When did we get to the point that it was "cool" or somehow "intelligent" to mock or put down someone who thinks about things and puts them into a global or historical perspective? Whether or not you like Brian, his point has merit. You might not think it pertinent to the greater issues confronting the PDGA but you can't deny that he has an understanding of issues that have occurred in the South and how they are still relevant to issues occurring today.

I find it sad that with the idiocy that now runs our government (UPM you should know better given your home town) and that runs many of our businesses (please see Enron, the loan industry, or any number of other major American corporations for recent public and private stupidities) that we should be looking down on those who are thinking about the issues that face us.

As for myself, gee Brian, thanks for taking the time to do something. To actually use insight as opposed to knee jerk reactions. Maybe with your advice the PDGA will stay out of a major land based war in the Middle East... :D

While that is said with a smile, I mean it, the PDGA has made relatively few missteps (especially under Brian's management) despite the many uninformed comments to the opposite. Apparently, thinking does matter.

Not to mention the metropole's shockingly inadequate and ill-conceived response to Katrina.

The PDGA isnt looking for any credit here, but given N'awlins is part of SN heartland, it should be clarified, simply so that folks are aware. When this disaster struck, the PDGA gave its TDs the option of the PDGA player fees going to Katrina instead. About 10 events said yes, and the result was about $3000 sent by HQ to the Red Cross' Katrina Fund. However directly or indirectly, hopefully these monies helped an SN and PDGA member or two, or someone they know, in some meaningful way.



[b][i]The only welfare handouts I see lately are the PDGA's to its consultants. How droll to see someone on the dole point fingers.

[b][i] you must be at "work" for the PDGA yawning so...

Not to mention the metropole's shockingly inadequate and ill-conceived response to Katrina.

The PDGA isnt looking for any credit here, but given N'awlins is part of SN heartland, it should be clarified, simply so that folks are aware. When this disaster struck, the PDGA gave its TDs the option of the PDGA player fees going to Katrina instead. About 10 events said yes, and the result was about $3000 sent by HQ to the Red Cross' Katrina Fund. However directly or indirectly, hopefully these monies helped an SN and PDGA member or two, or someone they know, in some meaningful way.



[b][i]The only welfare handouts I see lately are the PDGA's to its consultants. How droll to see someone on the dole point fingers.



UPM whatever happened to that Southern graciousness thing? Mike, even if you hate Brian, the least you could be is gracious about this generosity.

Thank you PDGA, for caring, apparently more than our Government!

[b][i] you must be at "work" for the PDGA yawning so...



Nope temporary job with the.... US postal service. :D It was too good to pass up.

UPM whatever happened to that Southern graciousness thing? Mike, even if you hate Brian, the least you could be is gracious about this generosity.

Thank you PDGA, for caring, apparently more than our Government!



[b][i] I don't hate Brian. Pity may be accurate, but I'd like to know if it's OK to pity someone before I actually say I pity them. AM I ALLOWED TO PITY? :)

I mean really, do you think it's okay for Mr. Wonderful to bash the whole south by calling us poor? Have you seen the per capita income of Nova Scotia lately? Just because the PDGA isn't paying my way to SCAMdanavia doesn't mean I can't afford it.

It's really quite funny to see Mr. Wonderful gloat about how successful the International PDGA is when the membership fees are so low, but if a Southerner wants his fees equal to the International fees, then we're asking for "welfare". IS THE IRONY LOST ON YOU LYLE?

WOW! so instead of comparing the per capita income of the South to the rest of the US, or the rates of education and quality thereof, or the rates of unemployment or uninsured children, to other parts of the US, you reach for the poorest part of Canada. Shoot, why aim so high, go for Ethiopia! The South is kicking some serious backside!

Like I said, you might not like what he wrote, and you might not like Brian (Oh wait, restate, you might only pity Brian) but his notion that the South is poor isn't based on his personal perceptions, it's in the National Census.

Never let facts get in the way of a rant, Lyle.

[b][i] I think you're mad at the South because we don't allow men to marry men.

And thus we see again over the past day or so why the message board had to take a member's only approach. If everyone would act like adults and post with respect, this could be an 'open' message board. But the few who just can't seem to grasp it illustrate again and again why the restrictions are necessary. Perhaps this is what can be pitied in all of this.

Sorry, but in many cases, 'how you say it' does carry a bit more weight than 'what you say'. Especially if the later is gibberish that most of us can't even begin to follow.

Tim,

The Competition Endowment Program has many good purposes, none of which are to give handouts to <font color="red">malcontents </font>



Brian, That's a personal attack. :D

no one has notified the mods yet

Tim,

The Competition Endowment Program has many good purposes, none of which are to give handouts to <font color="red">malcontents </font>



Brian, That's a personal attack. :D




no one has notified the mods yet



Regardless i cant believe the Executive Director of the <font color="red"> PROFESSIONAL </font> disc golf assoc. has resorted to name calling, which is clearly stated as a NO-NO in the MB rules.

[b][i] I think you're mad at the South because we don't allow men to marry men.



Well Duh! They do throw the best weddings, great food, lots of dancing...

I think Graham's quote is a little out of context. Read the post before his.

Cheers.

After reading the new announcement detailing the program,
most questions are answered.
The Development Grant side of the program has a $350 limit.
I assume that if over 35 non pDGA members attend the event,
the remainder of the $10 per non-member fees will have to be
collected and sent to HQ...along with the $2-$3 per participant fee

This detail sure makes the Charitable Event look more attractive.

thanks
steve timm

After reading the new announcement detailing the program,
most questions are answered.
The Development Grant side of the program has a $350 limit.
I assume that if over 35 non pDGA members attend the event,
the remainder of the $10 per non-member fees will have to be
collected and sent to HQ...along with the $2-$3 per participant fee

This detail sure makes the Charitable Event look more attractive.

thanks
steve timm



Hi Steve,

Thanks for your consideration in hosting a PDGA sanctioned tournament under the new Competition Endowment Program. The details of the program were a challenge to come up with but we feel as though we have a good plan that is fair to everyone and will benefit the growth of our sport. Most of the requirements were arrived at by referencing data from the Developmental "D" Tier events that the CEP is replacing.

In regards to your questions pertaining to the developmental side of the program, we are recommending the following to tournament directors of CEP events:

- Charge all competitors the standard $2 player fee for a C-tier as part of the entry fee. If it is determined after registration is closed that the event will not need to submit this money to the PDGA because you did not exceed the $350 limit in discounted fees, simply add this money to the payout as added cash, use it to offset some of your tournament expenses or donate it to a worthy disc golf project in your area.

- Wave the $10 non-member fee for the first 35 non-members to register as an incentive for players to pre-register or sign up early.

* These are merely suggestions as the TD has the option to handle it in any way they deem fit. Bottom line is that each event will have a maximum of $350 in fees discounted.

According to our records, Developmental "D"-Tier events in 2007 paid an average of $215 in non-member fees and $98 in player fees for an average of $312 total per event. We feel the overwhelming majority of events will fall under the $350 limit that the program allows.

We look forward to receiving your application. Please do not hesitate to contact the office should you need any addditional information or assistance.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

Brian G

As usual, your response is timely and to the point.
The only adjustment in your reply is the non member fee
average in 2007 ($215) doubled for new $10 would be $430
plus player ($98) fees totaling $528 per event average.

Without sounding totally self centered, here are the estimated specifics of our event.
110 DGers, 80 non pDGA members
$800 non-mem fees
$220 player fees
$50 sanctioning fee
$50 insurance fee
$1,100 total
$350 grant if awarded
$850 fees due pDGA
$250 Course rental
$150 Pavilion rental
$1,200 total costs just to start

Charity event
$25 sanctioning fee
$50 insurance
$440 to charity minimum (110 x $2 plus $2 match)
$0 course &amp; pavilion rental (waived for charity event)
$515 total start-up costs

I hope the endowment program is successful
and we appreciate the efforts of everyone involved.

respectfully
steve timm

Brian G

As usual, your response is timely and to the point.
The only adjustment in your reply is the non member fee
average in 2007 ($215) doubled for new $10 would be $430
plus player ($98) fees totaling $528 per event average.

Without sounding totally self centered, here are the estimated specifics of our event.
110 DGers, 80 non pDGA members
$800 non-mem fees
$220 player fees
$50 sanctioning fee
$50 insurance fee
$1,100 total
$350 grant if awarded
$850 fees due pDGA
$250 Course rental
$150 Pavilion rental
$1,200 total costs just to start

Charity event
$25 sanctioning fee
$50 insurance
$440 to charity minimum (110 x $2 plus $2 match)
$0 course &amp; pavilion rental (waived for charity event)
$515 total start-up costs

I hope the endowment program is successful
and we appreciate the efforts of everyone involved.

respectfully
steve timm




Hi Steve,

No adjustment is needed for my numbers above as I had already accounted for the $10 non-member fee in my calculation, so the $313 per event average I listed is correct and accurate.

In the interest of a fair comparison of PDGA fees, your budget above lists costs on the developmental side that you do not list on the charity event. While I understand that these are real costs to your event, they are not costs charged by the PDGA. Here is an amended chart showing a clear comparison of potential PDGA related costs to your event:

(Assuming 110 DGers, 80 non PDGA members)

PDGA Developmental Event:
$800 non-mem fees
$220 player fees
$50 sanctioning fee
$50 insurance (only if you need a certificate)
$1,100 total - $350 grant
------------------------------------
$750 fees for developmental event

PDGA Charity Event:
$25 sanctioning fee
$50 insurance (only if you need a certificate)
$440 to charity minimum (110 x $2 plus $2 match)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
$515 fees for charity event (local course and pavilion fees waived)

Additionally, if you were to go unsanctioned, your event would incur the following fees:

Unsanctioned Event:
$500 insurance policy (estimate for 2 day event policy)
$220 (Southern National player fees)
-------------------------------------------------------
$720
$400 local course and pavilion fees

$1,120 total for SN event

As a promoter of our sport, the question I would ask myself is, "Would I rather my fees go to the stockholders of an insurance company or to an organization whose purpose is to grow the sport of disc golf?"

Given your particular circumstances and geographical location, I would recommend that you host a PDGA charity event and donate the money to a hurricane relief program in New Orleans. The total cost for this would be $515 compared to $1,120 for an unsanctioned event (includes local course and pavilion fees). The big winners here would be your event and your community.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

Brian, I assume by "Unsanctioned" you mean "non-PDGA Sanctioned" since you include costs for SN sanctioning.

Perhaps it would be clearer is you separate the estimated cost for SN Sanctioning from the cost for the insurance policy ... especially since the event could, in fact, be dual sanctioned.

SN is NOT a sanctioning body.

Brian, I assume by "Unsanctioned" you mean "non-PDGA Sanctioned" since you include costs for SN sanctioning.

Perhaps it would be clearer is you separate the estimated cost for SN Sanctioning from the cost for the insurance policy ... especially since the event could, in fact, be dual sanctioned.



Chris,

You are correct. My reference above in regards to unsanctioned referred only to PDGA sanctioning. I would encourage Steve to dual sanction the event as both a SN and PDGA event, and in fact I already have on the NEFA forum. This dual sanctioning would still be less expensive than just a straight up SN event and the best part is that a local charity will benefit from the event.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

Thanks to all

Application has been submitted.
Check is being mailed today.

Steve Timm

Edited to inform all that application was accepted already.
The speedy reply is appreciated.

So Bill, how do you define "sanctioning body"? And really, what is the difference? rWc****

I'm not Bill, and I can't find a direct definition of 'sanctioning body', but if you do a google search and read through about 50 or so links and see what most sanctioning bodies do, they govern the sport (or at least the part they sanction), define classes and rules for competition, maintain the schedule and help organize events.

Sanctioning body, they govern the sport
(or at least the part they sanction), define classes
and rules for competition, maintain the schedule
and help organize events.



Being a tailor by trade, I would probably not use any
of the above words to describe the "body style"
of the Southern National's Jim Orum.
Portly, Zaftig, Plump, not quite Corpulent...

His leadership style, however is difficult to describe.
If you read any of his posts, even sober, your head spins.
Each Christmas, we get to read about a touching childhood event.

He clearly cares about the sport..
He directs the board of S N with most of
the described actions of a sanctioning body.
Granted, he does not make additional rules of play.
Can't imagine trying to read a rulebook personally
typed by Jim. That is a scary thought.

Mr. Jim, thanks for your efforts and direction.

steve timm

You'll notice I offered the definition, but no judgment.

Gary, sounds like some of the items the SN Board oversees... scheduling and some assistance organizing of events. It also somewhat defines classes or divisions, which will most likely not mirror the new PDGA divisions. I don't know why some people are making a big deal of it. Let them call them what they want. Have a good Christmas. rWc

Enjoy the holidays, maybe we'll get a chance to play together again sometime.

Many thanks to everyone that attended our event.
The Charity event raised $690 for Teen Life Counts,
a local suicide prevention program.
The picture below shows
Jeff Haydel, Southern Nationals Board Member,
Deena Gerber, Exec. Director of Jewish Family Service
Pat Brenner, PDGA Board Member.
Steve Timm, Pot of Gold TD
http://web.mac.com/fotojoe1/iWeb/DiscGolf/POTOFGOLD2008-1_files/POT%20OF%20GOLD%202008-3.jpg

The support of many made this event possible.

Good on all of you for supporting important work.

Best of,
Bill Maury-Holmes