OK guys, check out the thread below and read what some of the players in the Southeast have to say about why they're happy with a simply regional touring series. I don't hear any "malcontents," just folks who seem to be happy with what they have. Check it out.

rWc3523

SN Discussion Thread (http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,110903,page=1)

Russ, the "malcontents" that were mentioned I believe were referring to Mike K., Ransom Jones, and a few others from SN land who continue to bash the PDGA with their continual rants and allegations of administrative wrong-doing. I'm sure you won't argue that their style of conversation leads people to label them as "malcontents". I'm sure nobody wants to label the whole SN area as good-for-nothing slugs who just want to leach off of the PDGA's efforts to better our sport, since there obviously are some who want to make progress in bringing the two groups together. It doesn't take long when reading the SN forum to realize there are problems within the SN org. just as there are problems within the PDGA org. Those who can set aside their personal differences will be the ones who bring out the best of each other.

2nd


Russ, quite a few posted that SN events are more "fun" than PDGA events, can you tell me why? Also, do you use any different rules than the PDGA's?

Rob, I really couldn't answer for anyone about what they mean by fun, but the events seem a little more laid back, competitors are normally very friendly with each other, but there are exceptions. As far as rules, we use PDGA rules, but we have been known to mix pros and ams for the first round, because most players seem to enjoy it. I don't know if we will use the new PDGA divisions, but somehow I doubt it. rWc :cool:

To further answer the questions of why SN events are more fun: The people themselves take a very relaxed approach to the game and just have fun without being so serious all the time. We (I speak for the AMs) take a relaxed view of some of the rules which just makes it feel more like a casual round with friends than an uptight tournament. For instance, we tend to more lenient with foot faults. You will find it hard to find someone that will call you on an unintentional fault of a few inches. Also if you place your marker in front of your disc and then pick that disc up and throw it 10 ft over to your bag, it will not be called a stroke. If you have a drop in putt, you don't always have to place a marker and pick up your disc and drop it in the basket, just simply pick up your thrown disc without a marker and touch the chains and walk away. That is counted as holed out. It is the little things that just make it more fun. Even though you are in a tournament, it seems more like just throwing a casual round with your friends. This may happen at some PDGA tournaments as well. The few PDGA events I played were alot of fun and I meet many great folks that made it worth the trip. There just seemed to be a little more serious vibe in the air.
I don't have anything against the PDGA, they just don't offer me anything the SN doesn't give me.

If I wanted to do all that I would just play casual rounds. I play tourament for the challange not to take short cuts.

Are the Pro division players that casual when they are competing for the SN Championships? Who draws the line on what's acceptable and what's not? And why do the SN players use the rules that the PDGA has worked hard at trying to keep updated? If there is nothing the PDGA can provide you, why haven't you created your own rules that include the relaxed vibe that interests you?

It seems like selective enforcement to me, use what you like - condemn what you hate (just so long as someone else takes the reins and actually does the grunt work). :confused:

Also Russ, why are you calling this area the "Southeast"? I just did a check of the SN event schedule and I notice there are very, very few events in what I call the "Southeast". No events in North or South Carolina, 1 event in Georgia (which is actually listed as the Unity Summit), and only 2 or 3 in Florida. I'm interested why there aren't more events in N.C./S.C.? There should be plenty of SN supporters in those states, and they are typically grouped together with the rest of the "Southeast". What is it about the N.C./S.C. players that makes them choose PDGA events over SN events? Is it because there are more PDGA "good ole boys" who value what the PDGA does? How many players from those states attend SN events? How many in the past have attended and now don't care to return for what they perceive to be inferior events? Not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get a bigger perspective.

**Edit**
Just to make sure you don't think I'm a die-hard Union supporter, my family is from the South. My Dad was born and raised in Memphis, TN (later relocated to Jonesboro, AR), and my Mom was born and raised in Enterprise, Alabama (I've got relatives on her side all over the Florida Panhandle, South Alabama, South Georgia, and Mississippi). I'm very familiar with the Southern attitudes, hardships, sweet tea, and GRITS!

Also Russ, why are you calling this area the "Southeast"? I just did a check of the SN event schedule and I notice there are very, very few events in what I call the "Southeast". No events in North or South Carolina, 1 event in Georgia (which is actually listed as the Unity Summit), and only 2 or 3 in Florida. I'm interested why there aren't more events in N.C./S.C.? There should be plenty of SN supporters in those states, and they are typically grouped together with the rest of the "Southeast". What is it about the N.C./S.C. players that makes them choose PDGA events over SN events? Is it because there are more PDGA "good ole boys" who value what the PDGA does? How many players from those states attend SN events? How many in the past have attended and now don't care to return for what they perceive to be inferior events? Not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get a bigger perspective.

**Edit**
Just to make sure you don't think I'm a die-hard Union supporter, my family is from the South. My Dad was born and raised in Memphis, TN (later relocated to Jonesboro, AR), and my Mom was born and raised in Enterprise, Alabama (I've got relatives on her side all over the Florida Panhandle, South Alabama, South Georgia, and Mississippi). I'm very familiar with the Southern attitudes, hardships, sweet tea, and GRITS!



I live in southwest Virginia but wouldnt travel to play a SN tournament if they are casual tournment rounds. I play for the competive nature. When does an Int player have to play Adv or can they play Int forever.

Sean, that was my next topic! :DThanks to the hard work of the PDGA, I can look at your results from the last few years just by clicking a few times on this website (MUCHO THANKS, PDGA!). I notice you have played as an Advanced player for what, 6 years now? You've scored some pretty good finishes this year, congratulations! How many times have you heard other players calling you a bagger? Probably more than once, if your area is anything like all of the other areas I've played in. But thanks to the PDGA, anyone (even non-members) can see your progress. MUCHO THANKS, PDGA! Take a look through the SN website (or more specifically the forums) and you will read lots of evidence of the sandbagging problem in SN land. There is even a specific thread about the problem baggers. What is actually being done physically about the problem in SN land? Nothing that I can tell, other than whining and crying. I haven't seen any SN supporters setting up ratings or anything like that, but they sure do like to use the PDGA Player Ratings But many of them will still look you in the eye and say, " The PDGA does nothing for me!"

BTW Russ, Thank you for putting the links to each other's forums on each website. I think if each group will read more about the other, we'll each see the similarities and the differences, and be able to find more common ground. Hopefully the void will be bridged, and ALL of Disc Golf will benefit.

Dude, you've been playing am way too long, IMO. You say you play for the competetion. What's the fun in raking in so much plastic with 15 top 3s? If you're so intent on being competetive, move up to open. 45 top 5s? That's nothing to brag about. It's downright disgusting. About the competition, what a laugh.

And no, pros are not as lenient with the rules as the ams are. I warn for falling putts, excessive or blatant foot faults, and the disc must rest in the basket to hole out. There seems to be a certain stereotype about some PDGA players around the SN series that paints the average PDGA tournament player as a cut-throat, screw-you-any-chance I get kind of player. I can only assume this stereotype took flight because of a rotten few. You don't see this behavior at all in SN tournaments and I've never seen it in the PDGA, but it doesn't mean there aren't those kind of people out there.

Why are they more fun? We all know each other! High fives for great shots are the norm amongst players tied for the lead with 2 holes to go and amongst everyone else. (Please don't reply saying this is done in the PDGA as well, I'm not an idiot, I know comraderie exists everywhere. It's just very prevalent in the SN)

Mixing pros and ams in the first round is a great idea, I got to learn a lot from pros when I started playing tournaments. Disc golfers are extremely cool people no matter what part of the planet we are talking about. Don't let loyalty to an organization form your opinions for you about a person. This is true for politics as well.

This years worlds was going to be my last Am tournament but I moved across the country so I plan to play next year. I cant afford as many pro events since I have kids I play for the competive nature and for fun. I dont have stacks of plastic I give them away.

I live in southwest Virginia but wouldnt travel to play a SN tournament if they are casual tournment rounds. I play for the competive nature. When does an Int player have to play Adv or can they play Int forever.



Topdog,
Don't get me wrong. Just because it is more casual does not meen that we are not competative. There is still a great competative nature. We take the game itself seriously, we just tend to be more lenient on the BS. Throwing a disc over to your bag is obviously not a shot toward the basket. If your foot slides into your marker during a putt, is it really affecting the outcome of the shot you made? If your disc is under the basket for an easy drop in, do you really think someone would miss that shot? And if they did, would it really make you feel better to call it a stroke? Wouldn't you rather beat someone with real talent rather than add up strokes on BS?

Most Int move up to Adv when it is time. There is bagging of course, but those who bag, catch serious ragging from everyone and they usually move up.

From what I'm reading, it seem like SN players prefer cheap, casual rounds type tournaments. Sounds like club weekly/ monthlies, not actual tournaments. Don't get me wrong, I love club events. And yes, tournaments can be expensive. But when I go to a tournament, I want it to be/feel more like I'm playing "for real". For me, it sure feels better playing well and placing well in a "real" tournament than in a club event or casual round. IMHO
I'll stick with the PDGA.

We'll, they're more than "casual round" tournaments or "club monthlies" regardless of what you think. If you're happy with what you have, more power to ya. You guys enjoy your "real" events and we'll enjoy ours. Until you've played one, you really don't know.

rWc****

I'd have to agree that any group that encourages ignoring the rules in favor of fun is pretty much a casual group.

I prefer that all players make a reasonable attempt to follow all of the rules. I don't demand perfection, but I don't enjoy apathy. Who decides which rules are important and which ones can be ignored ? How do I argue for leniency if I get called for something that I let another player slide on ?

You are either playing by the rules or you aren't, and if you aren't, I'm not sure what liberties I can take.

I am not sure what groups eyeroni has been playing in, but my experience in Open and Pro Masters at more than 100 tournaments in the last four years has been every bit as competitive and every bit as rule observant as any PDGA tournament I played.

All the pros I have played with are equally concerned that the rules be followed to a "T" even if it means strokes. I, like many of my fellow pros, carry the latest PDGA rule book. Many of the SN TDs are also certified officials.

Having said that, I will continue to urge the PDGA itself (at the minimum) to require anyone carrying a card for a pro division to pass a rules test.

I am a bit amused at the responses to eyeroni's post. Rob, for instance, assumes from one player's post that the SNs is some kind of haven for gross flouting of the rules. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The amusing part, though, is all of the posts I have read on this very forum that talk about various aspects of the rules and bemoan the lack of enforcement at PDGA tournaments.

(I can tell you from experience, I have never seen a SN player kick over a rock cairn in a fit of pique.)

Resist the temptation to paint with a broad brush. There is actually very little that sets a SN tournament apart from a PDGA tournament. Maybe a little more cameraderie ... maybe ... but there was a lot of cameraderie when I played PDGA in the mid-Atlantic area. Maybe lower entry fees ... but not by much (except at the PDGA A Tier and NT levels).

I applaud anyone who wants to drive disc golf away from "casual game" and towards "serious sport." But that is my nature. I also want to compete and compete hard.

It should also be fun, however. It would be well to remember that.

"The amusing part, though, is all of the posts I have read on this very forum that talk about various aspects of the rules and bemoan the lack of enforcement at PDGA tournaments. "

we do not, as an organziation, do enough to demand that rules are followed. sometiems it seems like our comittment is to HAVE rules, not to FOLLOW them.

It seems to me after reading the SN board, the broadest paint strokes are coming from those in SN land. With such a hateful attitude toward the very organization that has consistently provided rules to play by, standardization of equipment, and many other benefits that most Disc Golf players take for granted, the painters in SN land are trying paint a dismal picture of progress. I don't believe every player in SN land is a "malcontent", but surely you can't deny the PDGA has come a long way as a group that is governed by the players itself. Until the hateful attitudes give way to more rational thinkers, it seems we'll continue on this path of selfish fulfillment.

no ... the broadest strokes tend to come from the people who post to discussion boards ... whether they be this one or the SN board or a board on clicker training for dogs or a board for the proper way to fletch arrows or ...

Some of the best ideas also come from these boards ... it's a great source of communication ... but also a great source of hyperbole ... (even occasionally from me).

If you (or anyone) takes the time to really read and digest everything on the thread that Russ started on the SN board, it becomes very obvious that there is a solid hatred of the PDGA by many of the most vocal SN supporters. They won't even take the time to acknowledge the many things the PDGA has accomplished so the SN could even have a starting point.

Maybe you could unionize the SN painters and help them to remember that when they keep painting with so much hatred, the innocent bystanders (the majority of Disc Golfers) don't get to see the original paint that was applied with hard work provided by other dedicated volunteers.

I really didn't hear "hate". I heard people happy with what they have. Certainly, there are a few who might exhibit some strong opinions about the PDGA, but like it was pointed out, many SN players ARE PDGA members. Myself, my wife and son are members and currently (wife and son) PDGA officials. You cannot force people to join.

rWc3523

"hatred" is a very strong word ...

the broadest strokes tend to come from the people who post to discussion boards ... also a great source of hyperbole ...

You are correct. It is also an attitude that is very prevalant on the SN board, no matter how much you try to ignore it. And in my experiences, hate will only bring you down or hold you back. It's sad to read so many Disc Golfers that continue to push that attitude about the PDGA, when if you really get down to the core issues, most of those that want to bash the PDGA are only repeating what a select few want the masses to believe.

As silly as this may sound, Brian H. had a very valid point when he wrote about SN (despite the grief he got).

The SN doesn't sound all that different from the PDGA. I can really see two things: lower fee structure, and I hate the PDGA for whatever reason so SN here I come (this is more on the TD side than the player side, players play the events that occur, more so if they're fun).

All of these comments about more casual are baloney. Hate to tell you, but I've seen plenty of SN players hit PDGA events. If you've convinced yourself that they play differently in one verses the other I might suggest you're mistaken about human nature; people are what they are.

Also, this notion of rules and casual play being different. You're not even reading the PDGA MB if you think there aren't huge differences in the observance of rules at PDGA events. Furthermore, I guarantee, a top ranked Pro at an SN event will only be burned once if he drops a round because his competitor takes advantage of lax rules coverage.

PDGA rules don't get called the way they do because of the PDGA, they do because that's the way members call them - both good and bad.

I read the thread and find most of the reasoning quite reasonable and understandable. However, most of the reasons were simple economics: what do I get for what I give and do I really need it?

Even though I am pretty much ambivalent on the PDGA, I have never viewed SN as a viable alternative. Really, why should I consider it as anything more than a series of non-sanctioned events? The SN doesn't even attempt to tackle (as far as I know) the benefits mentioned by John, namely rules and equipment standardization. Sure, maybe there is no need to tackle those since the PDGA has already done so, but what about other issues? Where is the vision needed to address all that is ahead for a sport. Sorry, I just don't see the SN as an actual alternative to the PDGA, since I am concerned with much more than just events. Therefore, the PDGA vs. SN arguments/discussions are always pointless. It's nothing more than arguing which tournament series is better.

James is right in that the SN is NOT an alternative to the PDGA as an umbrella organization. It's more an alternative to the tour. That's all it was ever meant to be. rWc3523

OK, everyone is taking what I posted about a relaxed view of the rules a little too seriously. I thought I would make it a little clearer because some of you think we are just out on the course blatantly disregarding all the rules. That is not what is happening. All the rules are in effect and are played by.

I beleive the 3 examples of leniency I refered to were foot faults, extra strokes for throwing a disc to your bag, and hole out.
Foot Fault: I think I remember saying UNINTENTIONAL foot faults. I will clarify to say that when this occurs I would give the person the benefit of the doubt the first time and if it conitinutes, a private talk to let the person know what they are doing, not just call foot fault and start adding up strokes like a complete *****. I have played in a tournament where one of the guys in my group (I imagine because a had a few stroke lead) was watching my every move for faults. It was quite annoying. You will find it hard to find that kind of behavior in SN. Just looking out for a way to screw your opponent just because you can't beat him. come on

Strokes: tossing your disc back to your bag: come on man, it is not like it happens on every hole with every person in every group. It was a generality. I beleive the rule says a throw counted for a score must be at least 2 meters and/or a throw toward the basket. I may be wrong and sure to be corrected if so. Personally, If someone did try to call that a stroke on me, It would not go over well!

Again, I have to ask, rule or not, would it make you feel better to beat someone on a BS technicality or by true talent?

Putting out: again a generalization. 9/10 times people hole out correctly. I was just using it as an example. Don't get bent out of shape. I was only talking of DROP INS. disc under or right the basket, not 3 ft away. You know the ones were you have to make sure you don't hit your head on the basket when you pick up your disc.

Again I am only speaking of AM-Int. this all I have played. I have been playing for several years (5-6) and I suck! especially now that I injured my shoulder and have lost the distance on my drive and that was my entire game. I still play for fun! Lately I have been in the bottom of the AM pool and this is where these actions have been witnessed. I used to finish in the top 10 and it did not happen there and certainly not at the championships. Again, these were general examples to show how nice we are in the South.
Are you happy now?!?!?!
We follow the rules, We don't cheat!, we are not hicks, we don't marry our sisters, we don't live in dirt floor houses, and we have inside plumbing, but we are kinder and get along well with everyone.


As for "malcontents" most SN players are not solely against the PDGA. some are, yes. We recognize what the PDGA has done for the sport. ie: regulations on disc and baskets, promotion of the sport.... The PDGA is not just a tour, it is in charge of the regulations and rules of the sport. We just have to ask ourselve what, other than the rules and regulations, does the PDGA offer the players of the SN tour? What do the players get for the price of dual sanctioning? Is it worth it to dual sanction every event? We, I assume the majority, feel we get enough from playing in the SN tour. As Russ has said, it is not that we have hatred for the PDGA, we are just happy with what we have. The PDGA has to offer us something else, other than a magazine, if they want the money from the SN tour.

come on man, it is not like it happens on every hole with every person in every group. It was a generality. I beleive the rule says a throw counted for a score must be at least 2 meters and a throw toward the basket. I may be wrong and sure to be corrected if so. Personally, If someone did try to call that a stroke on me, It would not go over well!



And this is the problem. The fact that it would "not go over well" since you did not follow the rules (which is incorrect as it is any throw of any distance towards the hole or a throw of 2m. or more). If you expect to win by me allowing you to not obey the rules, that is you issue.

I am not saying that I would be a prick about it, just that if I am expected to follow the rules, I would expect the others in my group to do the same.

Thank you,

Steve

P.S. I am a rec player who is not competing for much yet.

There are some of us where I'm from, myself included, who will remind newer players about some of these rules so they won't get called during tournaments. If you develop bad habits, it can carry over to tournaments.

I had someone pick up a lie under the basket once during a tournament and I freaked and had them replace it so I could hole out. Don't get the idea that SN disc golfers play casual rounds during tournaments.

Then again, what would it really matter if we did. If WE'RE enjoying ourselves, that's really all that matters. And don't worry, most of us know how to act in a big time REAL disc golf tournament. Most of us will actually bathe as well! rWc****

SN country is pretty much Mobile, LA, MS and Memphis.
Huntsville has held the PDGA Worlds twice. Charollete has also held two Worlds.

You forgot the panhandle of Fla. and Little Rock. And there have been SN events in South Carolina, Tulsa, Mass. and a few other out of the way places. Now why would someone do that?

Sounds like B'ham is having an A-Tier next year? So along with BG and Huntsville, we should get our money's worth for renewing.

BTW, is there still a family discount? I'm paying for THREE PDGA members, not one.

FYI, the BEST disc golf event I ever attended was the 2004 Combined PDGA Worlds in Des Moines. rWc****

There have been several SN events in Texas as well, even though Texas is state with a lot of sanctioned events and PDGA members. As you said before, the SN is a tour, not a club.

As far as I know there is no SN membership beyond playing SN events.

Gary, you're exactly right. Hosting an SN event in places like Texas, OK, etc., allows those players to compete in the SN Am or Pro Championship. Several have made the trip from these locales and I don't think they went away unhappy. Especially since several made return visits. rWc3523

Attn: PDGA employees

and everyone else


This is part of a post of mine on the SN site. I think it is a good point and thought I would share it here for those who have not looked at the SN MB.

The PDGA has done a great deal in the order of rules and regulations, but where are the big corporate sponsors?

"With all the money raised during the year why can't they get some of the larger tournaments on live tv? I mean at least the Worlds! Where is the corporate sponsorship? It seems that if they really have been trying to do something over all these years there would be some corporate sponsors other than the disc manufacturers such as Pepsi, Nike, North Face... hell, with all the beer disc golfers drink, where is Anheuser Busch?"

The quickest way to make a sport grow is letting others know of its existance. NOW is the prime time for it! Disc golf is beginning to get more exposure, such as Conan and Nickalodeon....There needs to be disc golf on ESPN. More coverage and awareness = More players = more sponsors = more money and the cycle continues.

If the PDGA, the largest tour series and the governing body of disc golf, could get some big sponsors and tv coverage, there would most certainly be more PDGA sactioned events in SN land. Not to mention, the fan base would grow = more viewers both on tv and at the event = more money
can you imagine disc golf being that big?!?!?! the top touring pros could start making the kind of money that is made in the PGA. I know it would take some time for that, but you have to start somewhere. So, why not here and NOW?

There needs to be disc golf on ESPN.



Foot in the door (http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/21/mov/channel/9?page=4)

Sorry to upset anyone in SN land. I read the SN MB as posted by Russ and I read from several posters that SN events are more "fun" then PDGA events. When I asked why, the response I got (no, not from every SN player- just the response I got) lead me to believe (obviously incorrect) the SN events are more relaxed (played more like a casual round/ club monthly) than most (MOST) PDGA events. Now I'm getting that they aren't. :confused: So I guess I still don't know why SN = more fun. Most have posted that it's cheaper, except one posted that it's really about the same (except A-teir/ NT events). Really, what makes SN more fun than PDGA? And is it really cheaper? [for the player? (I'm guessing not for the TD)]

And I wasn't trying to imply that rules are completely ignored at SN events. I saw on your MB that the $3 PDGA rule books are sold for $5. Does the extra $2 go back to the players? :)

Attn: PDGA employees

and everyone else


This is part of a post of mine on the SN site. I think it is a good point and thought I would share it here for those who have not looked at the SN MB.

The PDGA has done a great deal in the order of rules and regulations, but where are the big corporate sponsors?

"With all the money raised during the year why can't they get some of the larger tournaments on live tv? I mean at least the Worlds! Where is the corporate sponsorship? It seems that if they really have been trying to do something over all these years there would be some corporate sponsors other than the disc manufacturers such as Pepsi, Nike, North Face... hell, with all the beer disc golfers drink, where is Anheuser Busch?"

The quickest way to make a sport grow is letting others know of its existance. NOW is the prime time for it! Disc golf is beginning to get more exposure, such as Conan and Nickalodeon....There needs to be disc golf on ESPN. More coverage and awareness = More players = more sponsors = more money and the cycle continues.

If the PDGA, the largest tour series and the governing body of disc golf, could get some big sponsors and tv coverage, there would most certainly be more PDGA sactioned events in SN land. Not to mention, the fan base would grow = more viewers both on tv and at the event = more money
can you imagine disc golf being that big?!?!?! the top touring pros could start making the kind of money that is made in the PGA. I know it would take some time for that, but you have to start somewhere. So, why not here and NOW?



This topic has been discussed here ad nauseous. That you think this could be a possibility demonstrates a lack of knowledge about sponsorships, what someone like Nike is looking for, and how such things get positioned. We aren't even small fish in a big pond, we're the algae that the small fish eat.

I believe some of this attitude (or maybe it's lack of actual facts) comes from many of the posts on the SN board from "vl" (or Victor who used to be known here as wwworker...or something like that). He's got a terrible taste in his mouth from the PDGA folks not listening to his rants and taking his advice as solid gold. The Sportsloop failure has gotten him so worked up that he just can't see straight when he even thinks about it. He can't just let it go as a mistake and a learning experience, he has to constantly bring it up to make people think that the PDGA never does anything right, and that they only throw our money into the wind. And a lot of the negative attitude we used to read from him here, you can still see on the SN board as he continues to bash not just the PDGA, but also many of the SN regulars who try to build Disc Golf in their area but somehow fall on his bad side.

(to no one in particular)

its risky to dismiss these ideas, even if you have heard them uncountable times already. new people come into our sport every day - remember up to 40% of our members are new each year. what is a tired old argument to some of us is a fresh, unexplored idea to many others of us. like it or not, re-education, and repeated discussions are a way of life, and probably will continue forever. we DO owe it to our new members to fully rehash the argument each time they ask. (either that or publish a discussion recap on the website for reference purposes)

John, you got it right about VL. I met the guy once in Lafayette, LA. and he seemed OK, but that was just over a weekend. His posts were NOT what I was looking for. I really just wanted people to explain why they did not want to join/renew their PDGA memberships.
But when you do that, you have to take the good with the bad. You see that there are some who will take VL's route and others who will calmly explain their reasons and others who will explain them more vehemently, but still do so in a reasonable manner without all the BS.
For what it's worth, the SN Message Board only reflects a fraction of the SN players, as does the PDGA MB, so don't take it all as being the opinion of the majority.

The bottom line the way I see it is that people are happy with a simple touring series and don't want to get involved in the larger organization. If fills their disc golf needs and for them that's fine.

I don't want you to think everyone in the SN is a raving lunatic!

rWc3523
;)

There needs to be disc golf on ESPN.



Foot in the door (http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/21/mov/channel/9?page=4)



DGTV is a good medium for us disc golfers, but how many non disc golf players view that site? We need exposure outside of the people that are already playing.
Maybe with the writers strike, the world will see the re-run of Dave Feldburg on Conan. I know it is on youtube, but actual tv gets much more coverage. Where is OCHO when you need it? ESPN 8!

BTW, is there still a family discount? I'm paying for THREE PDGA members, not one.

rWc****



Russ,
It is actually cheaper now than in the past with 3 members as you can have 1 person sign up with the mag(if wanted) and the other 2 with no mag and you save $20 instead of $15 in the past($5 off each family member)

And if 1 member is under 17 years old, sign them up as a junior(which comes with magazine) and then you can save even more.

Keith

I believe some of this attitude (or maybe it's lack of actual facts) comes from many of the posts on the SN board from "vl" (or Victor who used to be known here as wwworker...or something like that). He's got a terrible taste in his mouth from the PDGA folks not listening to his rants and taking his advice as solid gold. The Sportsloop failure has gotten him so worked up that he just can't see straight when he even thinks about it. He can't just let it go as a mistake and a learning experience, he has to constantly bring it up to make people think that the PDGA never does anything right, and that they only throw our money into the wind. And a lot of the negative attitude we used to read from him here, you can still see on the SN board as he continues to bash not just the PDGA, but also many of the SN regulars who try to build Disc Golf in their area but somehow fall on his bad side.



You have to be careful of people looking for a medium. Victor also posted on the local HFDS web site and was spoiling for a fight. Eventually, the local players got tired of him and told him to bugger off. He's found his medium in the SN web site. Some people are looking.

BTW - Victor came in after the sports loop incident. He jumped on it as a viable issue even though he never paid for it. Again, he was looking for something and he found it.

(to no one in particular)

its risky to dismiss these ideas, even if you have heard them uncountable times already. new people come into our sport every day - remember up to 40% of our members are new each year. what is a tired old argument to some of us is a fresh, unexplored idea to many others of us. like it or not, re-education, and repeated discussions are a way of life, and probably will continue forever. we DO owe it to our new members to fully rehash the argument each time they ask. (either that or publish a discussion recap on the website for reference purposes)



Actually, I disagree with this position. It doesn't take a whole lot of research, or even a lot of common sense thought to put some of these notions in to perspective. They are pipe dreams or mis-perceptions based on desire as opposed to any real thought. Even in cases where it takes a little bit of thought, one should care enough to do a little bit of research before posting something along the lines of "the PDGA is lazy and good-for-nothing since they haven't gotten a real time sponsor who will pump millions (or at least thousands) of dollars into the sport." That post even neglects looking at what local TDs have to go through to get sponsorships. It even neglects looking at what the PDGA has done (please look at the Microtel arrangement).

Being new to the MB doesn't preclude using common sense. It doesn't give you carte blanch to rant at the PDGA because they haven't met "your" need, without thinking about what they have done.

There is a proper way to address such things.

Hey, it seems to me that one way the PDGA might help the sport grow is by recruiting large sponsors to bring money into the sport. I'm too lazy to look through the documents to see what they've done here, can one of you more experienced posters fill me in?

BTW - That isn't something novel or insightful, it's communication basics 101. No one would ever take some of the positions taken here with a friend. They'd ask a lot more politely. And no successful business person would ever approach an issue so poorly.

John, you got it right about VL. I met the guy once in Lafayette, LA. and he seemed OK, but that was just over a weekend. His posts were NOT what I was looking for. I really just wanted people to explain why they did not want to join/renew their PDGA memberships.
But when you do that, you have to take the good with the bad. You see that there are some who will take VL's route and others who will calmly explain their reasons and others who will explain them more vehemently, but still do so in a reasonable manner without all the BS.
For what it's worth, the SN Message Board only reflects a fraction of the SN players, as does the PDGA MB, so don't take it all as being the opinion of the majority.

The bottom line the way I see it is that people are happy with a simple touring series and don't want to get involved in the larger organization. If fills their disc golf needs and for them that's fine.

I don't want you to think everyone in the SN is a raving lunatic!

rWc3523
;)



This I will agree with, but I would post that I've seen some very good commentary and met some very polite and informative people from the SN. Taxman for example...

I have refrained from this discussion here and at sndg, as have MOST of the SN golfers I know. I cringe at remarks made by some of the "SN" people, knowing that the "PDGA" folks and others are going to read it. I don't think some of the people in SN land even understand what the Southern Nationals is about. It is just a disc golf tournament series. It's not, ever has been, or has ever meant to be an alternative to the PDGA. I don't understand why some people think it is.

That said, I am very proud to be a Southern National member (which all it takes to be a member is purchase of a $20 bag tag.)I am proud of its short history. I am proud of the people running SN events. I am proud to see young'uns play well and move up. I am proud because, as a disc golfer, that is mostly all I have known.I first picked up a disc in '94 and played my first tourney in '97 after a high school buddy of mine, #6206, came in 4th at Worlds. I won my first Intermediate tourney in '99, then quit for four years. In 2003, I started playing again, and I found out that there were very few PDGA tournaments in my area. I found that the tournaments run in my area were Southern National sanctioned, and I got hooked. I've played 111 SN tournaments since then. That's why I am proud of the Southern Nationals. It was a way for me to gauge my progress as a golfer against other golfers, without having to travel multiple hours to PDGA venues.

Now that I have become somewhat accomplished at this craft, I do try and travel the long distances to PDGA events, and try and hit everyone I can in my area. I am a current member, I am a certified official and I am also a SN Championship tournament director. I am 31 years old and proud to be all of those things.

My biggest fear reading threads like this is that a disdain will grow against the Southern Nationals. I don't want that. I want disc golfers from all around the country to say, "Man, that Southern Nationals championship we played was pretty cool, and the payout was FAT! Let's go again next year."

I have refrained from this discussion here and at sndg, as have MOST of the SN golfers I know. I cringe at remarks made by some of the "SN" people, knowing that the "PDGA" folks and others are going to read it. I don't think some of the people in SN land even understand what the Southern Nationals is about. It is just a disc golf tournament series. It's not, ever has been, or has ever meant to be an alternative to the PDGA. I don't understand why some people think it is.

That said, I am very proud to be a Southern National member (which all it takes to be a member is purchase of a $20 bag tag.)I am proud of its short history. I am proud of the people running SN events. I am proud to see young'uns play well and move up. I am proud because, as a disc golfer, that is mostly all I have known.I first picked up a disc in '94 and played my first tourney in '97 after a high school buddy of mine, #6206, came in 4th at Worlds. I won my first Intermediate tourney in '99, then quit for four years. In 2003, I started playing again, and I found out that there were very few PDGA tournaments in my area. I found that the tournaments run in my area were Southern National sanctioned, and I got hooked. I've played 111 SN tournaments since then. That's why I am proud of the Southern Nationals. It was a way for me to gauge my progress as a golfer against other golfers, without having to travel multiple hours to PDGA venues.

Now that I have become somewhat accomplished at this craft, I do try and travel the long distances to PDGA events, and try and hit everyone I can in my area. I am a current member, I am a certified official and I am also a SN Championship tournament director. I am 31 years old and proud to be all of those things.

My biggest fear reading threads like this is that a disdain will grow against the Southern Nationals. I don't want that. I want disc golfers from all around the country to say, "Man, that Southern Nationals championship we played was pretty cool, and the payout was FAT! Let's go again next year."



My greatest pleasure is reading posts like this one. Thank you! If everyone in the PDGA wrote this eloquently about why they like the PDGA we'd be in great shape! The SN is lucky to have you as a supporter!

...played my first tourney in '97 after a high school buddy of mine, #6206, came in 4th at Worlds. ...



I didn't look up the #PDGA number, really, but given your age, date, and location (Mobile), would your friend happen to be Rivers Sherrod?

That's my boy! I'm trying to get him back into the swing of things. Young Merle is two years old now, so hopefully Rivers can find that groove again.

He still amazes me on the course.

Willie my man

Hope you enjoy yourself at the P Cup.

You represent our region with honor.
The 07 SN Pro tourney was a fine event.
I saw you at EVERY tourney I attended,
selling CFR discs, signing up people
and getting the word out.
You were directly responsible for the
success and I can not thank you enough.

Yes, Lyle O. Ross, this youngin' is a keeper.

steve timm

We've run about a dozen events in the Carolinas that were sanctioned by both organizations. PDGA is good for disc golf; Southern Nationals is too. It's kind of like chocolate cake and banana pudding. Both are yummy.

Take care,
Harold