I have posted this on a couple of the 'ask a board member' threads, but decided to turn it into a poll and see what the group sentiment is.

Why don't we simply have two layers of the discussion board?

There would be one layer that anyone could read but only members could post to. This area would strictly be for disc golf discussions - equipment, rules, ratings, tournaments, etc. Posting non disc golf related items in this area would be grounds for probations and suspensions. Naturally, posting inappropriate material here (profanity, offensive remarks, etc.) would also result in probations and suspensions.

There would be a second layer that only members over the age of 18 could access. There could be a warning on the first page of this stating that members who enter this area risk encountering all of the things we are trying to keep off the public board - inappropriate links, profanity, personal attacks, etc.

I'm not an IT expert, but it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult or costly to implement this. Plus, the way I see it, this has nothing but advantages for us.

1) We have a 'public' board that projects the image we are going for - wholesome, clean and family-friendly.

2) We appease the segment of the PDGA membership that wants a board that is a free for all.

3) The moderators would have a much easier job and could perhaps volunteer their efforts towards something more productive in the disc golf community.

It may be viable but still not desirable.

Perhaps for that segment of the membership who wish to be vile, crude, crass, or uncivil, there are other places on internet more suitable. Of all the things the PDGA can or should or might do to support and advance disc golf, is providing a forum for the most atrocious behaviour of any great value?

Yes, it would get more views. No, it would not be shunned. Can't think of how it would be beneficial, though.

If desired, such a section would be less-regulated, not unregulated. I'm certain there are things that would be banned, even there. So it's a matter of where we draw the lines, fuzzy and subjective as they may be.

I think we can find somewhere between gory and antiseptic. I don't see where the worst of the behaviour we've seen benefits anyone, other than the person enjoying their own poor conduct. On the other hand, I do wish the moderators would lighten up on the definition of "personal attack", which does seem to me to have wandered into silly territory recently.

You are changing the definition of the original question.

Anything that requires moderation of extremely blurry lines of what is excepted and what is not would be a tremendous burden to volunteer moderators.

The original proposal refers to a free-for-all, no rules, adult oriented, environment with no censorship whatsoever.

These tend to lean to the more offensive than the less offensive in content in the few I've looked through.

Define offensive. Bet my definition is different. I could make a case that almost all religious prostelitizing on the MB can be offensive, regardless of which religion it subscribes to.

Also, anyone on the free-for-all board would get a warning message before entering, telling them what to expect.

As far as keeping kids under 18 off such a board, that is primarily the responsibility of.....their PARENTS! Yes, some kids below age will get there, but it's not PDGA's responsibility to keep them out. Just because I was 13 years old at one point didn't keep me from getting into my dad's Playboy collection back then. But it my dad's responsibilty to keep me out of those, not the store that sold him the magazine.

Chap

In general, I suspect those who wish to post disruptive statements want to do it in front of those who staff, volunteer and run the sport. If the disc golf free-for-all was located somewhere else on the Internet, they might not even participate since those they rip on likely wouldn't go there to read or participate. What would be the "fun" in that?

Just because I was 13 years old at one point didn't keep me from getting into my dad's Playboy collection back then.


It took you until age 13 to find it??? :o

Just because I was 13 years old at one point didn't keep me from getting into my dad's Playboy collection back then.


It took you until age 13 to find it??? :o



My dad's crafty. :)

Chap

And the acorn didn't fall far from the tree... ;)

In general, I suspect those who wish to post disruptive statements want to do it in front of those who staff, volunteer and run the sport. If the disc golf free-for-all was located somewhere else on the Internet, they might not even participate since those they rip on likely wouldn't go there to read or participate. What would be the "fun" in that?



Does a "no rules" section, or entire message board, benefit the PDGA, or disc golf in general?

If not, is this a benefit we should provide for the "fun" of a certain portion of the membership?

I'm not sure I agree with the argument others have made that, because everyone can't agree on standards of conduct or on what is offensive, that our message board can't have standards. Nor that, if the rules can't be clearly and absolutely drawn, we should have no rules.

In general, I suspect those who wish to post disruptive statements want to do it in front of those who staff, volunteer and run the sport. If the disc golf free-for-all was located somewhere else on the Internet, they might not even participate since those they rip on likely wouldn't go there to read or participate. What would be the "fun" in that?



They why do they do it here now? I barely read or posted on the MB while I was on the BoD.

Chap

As I understand it, this idea has been run up the flagpole before.

But it makes no sense. The Board would never approve a member-funded message board with a no-holds barred area that would allow personal attacks, pornography, inappropriate links, etc. and would easily open up the PDGA to legal action.

There are literally a million other message boards on the internet, and anybody who wants to can easily find an unmoderated one or can set up their own that satisfies their needs. I literally shake my head in disbelief at all those who whine and complain about free speech, censorship, blah, blah, blah. There's only a few, easily-adhered-to rules to follow here which simply ask members to be respectful of each other. How hard is that?

As I understand it, this idea has been run up the flagpole before.

But it makes no sense. The Board would never approve a member-funded message board with a no-holds barred area that would allow personal attacks, pornography, inappropriate links, etc. and would easily open up the PDGA to legal action.

There are literally a million other message boards on the internet, and anybody who wants to can easily find an unmoderated one or can set up their own that satisfies their needs. I literally shake my head in disbelief at all those who whine and complain about free speech, censorship, blah, blah, blah. There's only a few, easily-adhered-to rules to follow here which simply ask members to be respectful of each other. How hard is that?



Again, define offensive. That is a subjective definition, and it's pretty hard to get around that. And I think legal action could be avoided by the disclaimer or warning message that displays when you enter. But this is a private MB, for the most part, and PDGA reserves the right to censor it in any manner that it chooses, and people have to realize that.

Personally, I think PDGA overvalues the MB anyway, and I would love to see the whole thing go elsewhere. It seemed to cause way more problems than it solved when I was on the BoD.

Chap

A good chunk of the MB did go elsewhere when it was made members only. When I got started, I diligently read the techniques section trying to learn. I posted questions and received helpful feedback. But at that time I was not a PDGA member. Now all those newer players have to find other resources to ask those questions since they are most likely not going to join the PDGA just to learn how to putt.

I personally am not sure I would have joined the PDGA when I did if I hadn't gotten drawn in to the PDGA MB when starting out.

As I understand it, this idea has been run up the flagpole before.

<font color="blue">Was it ever given serious consideration or just dismissed out of hand? </font>

But it makes no sense. The Board would never approve a member-funded message board with a no-holds barred area that would allow personal attacks, pornography, inappropriate links, etc. and would easily open up the PDGA to legal action.

<font color="blue"> How would the Board vote if a majority of the members wanted such a section? In regards to legal attacks, the disclaimer should take care of that. Things that are illegal in society would also have to be banned in the open area (drug solicitation, child pornography, etc.). </font>

There are literally a million other message boards on the internet, and anybody who wants to can easily find an unmoderated one or can set up their own that satisfies their needs.

<font color="blue"> Perhaps we like the people on this board.</font>

I literally shake my head in disbelief at all those who whine and complain about free speech, censorship, blah, blah, blah.

<font color="blue">I have stated before and will state again - a private organization has the right to censor their message board in any way they want. I accept this. I also believe that, as a member of this organization, I have the right to try and change it as long as I work within the existing rules. </font>

There's only a few, easily-adhered-to rules to follow here which simply ask members to be respectful of each other. How hard is that?

<font color="blue">The problem is not that there are rules. The problem is that the rules are subjective, which, in essence, doesn't really make them rules but whims.</font>

The original proposal refers to a free-for-all, no rules, adult oriented, environment with no censorship whatsoever.

These tend to lean to the more offensive than the less offensive in content in the few I've looked through.

<font color="blue">I promise that no one will make you go in there. :D </font>

Dan,

You've been a MB member for a while now, haven't you? I'm sure you remember Mike Crump? Well he started his own website with a message board because he felt the PDGA was too restrictive (along with a few other reasons :p). The initial vibe was that he knew the best way to go with an internet message board. They enjoyed some success with their attempt, but ultimately people came back to where civility ruled. I read their board a time or two, and I was never offended or disgusted with what I read or saw. But that kind of free-for-all just didn't get me the information I wanted. I enjoy comedy and satire, and just like most humans, I'll turn to see the carnage of a car wreck. But this board is not the place for that kind of activity. IMO

<font color="blue"> In regards to legal attacks, the disclaimer should take care of that. Things that are illegal in society would also have to be banned in the open area (drug solicitation, child pornography, etc.). </font>



Looks to me like you're changing your tune now. Now you want some limited moderation - things that are illegal in society would also have to be banned in the open area (drug solicitation, child pornography, etc.) What society are you referencing? The United States? The Netherlands? Switzerland? And are you going to volunteer to monitor and regulate this area 24/7? Yeah, good luck with that one.

Additionally, while I'm no lawyer, I'm not sure that a generic disclaimer automatically vindicates the PDGA of all liability. I'd be willing to bet that if some of the aforementioned activities were going on, the PDGA could easily be sued and the entire website shut down.

Hi Jeff,

Not changing my tune. Just happened to realize that certain things are illegal and posting such things could get us in trouble. I don't want to see us lose the message board.

As far as monitoring goes, someone is monitoring the board now, aren't they? People who saw something illegal could report it to a moderator and the process would work much like it does now.

Of course, let's just add more workload to those with already limited volunteer time, and ask them to deal with illegal activities and extreme filth?

Again, this all makes no sense to me. Instead of playing devil's advocate, in one hour you could set up your own uncensored message board and post to your heart's content with no restrictions. Here are the links:

http://www.ubbcentral.com/
http://www.phpbb.com/

Does a "no rules" section, or entire message board, benefit the PDGA, or disc golf in general?

If not, is this a benefit we should provide for the "fun" of a certain portion of the membership?



Hi David,

Can you please tell me how any of the threads under 'General Topics - miscellaneous' benefit disc golf? I'm willing to bet that they contribute as much as flame threads would contribute with the difference being that threads like 'NFL 2007' and 'Ron Paul 2008' are allowed.

Of course, let's just add more workload to those with already limited volunteer time, and ask them to deal with illegal activities and extreme filth?

<font color="blue">I'm not sure how the work load would be increased. Could you explain this to me? My thinking is that less moderation means less work.</font>

Again, this all makes no sense to me. Instead of playing devil's advocate, in one hour you could set up your own uncensored message board and post to your heart's content with no restrictions.

<font color="blue">I've never suggested that I want to set up my own message board. I've also never suggested that I have a desire to post things that might be censored here. (That doesn't mean I wouldn't if it were allowed! ;))

I am suggesting that maybe we should be a little more tolerant of the other members of our disc golf 'family' that might not see things the same way we do.

I just don't see the big deal with having two sections. If someone flames you, ignore it. Eventually they'll figure out that it's not going to get a reaction and stop bothering you.

If someone posts a link to something you don't want to see, then don't follow the link. </font>

Why push the limits so hard? For what?
We could lose this message board for irresponsible behavior.

Like everyone has said since this board was created. I want my PDGA folks working for disc golf not freedom of speech.

SwizzelDAN

Nice presentation of your ideas.
You demonstrate respect and humility.
Is this the result of your European experience?
If so, I'm sending all my kids to Europe.

thanks

steve timm

SwitzerDan... I think your idea holds water although I dont know about the 18 and up, no holds barred portion.

I know you've been on our msg bard in charlotte so you know we operate ours w/ 2 sides like you are suggesting... 1 for everyone and 1 for members only. The members only isnt there so people can be crude and post adult things... its so we can have a private side to discuss club only business.

This being said... i cant off the top of my head think of any pdga members only business to discuss that others shouldn't be able to read but maybe there is a need for this (other than to allow for people to post/say whatever they want).

Or maybe the need isnt to allow pdga members to have a place where only they can view/post but to have a place where non-pdga members can post (and of course moderate the HECK out of that area) maybe they can't post pics and can only put up text ... would prob save some time.

Another thing that could be setup would be to change the 'spamming rate limit' for the non-members accounts so that they can only post once every 5 minutes or so... I know this feature is in most message bards but not sure if its customizable.

Does a "no rules" section, or entire message board, benefit the PDGA, or disc golf in general?

If not, is this a benefit we should provide for the "fun" of a certain portion of the membership?



Hi David,

Can you please tell me how any of the threads under 'General Topics - miscellaneous' benefit disc golf? I'm willing to bet that they contribute as much as flame threads would contribute with the difference being that threads like 'NFL 2007' and 'Ron Paul 2008' are allowed.



Never been there, but I suspect they don't.

My thought was that the message board in general, or specific sections or aspects of it, might serve two purposes: (1) Benefit the PDGA or disc golf in general, ---OR--- (2) benefit the membership, or at least a portion of it.

The General Topics might fall in the second category. Just a benefit that some members enjoy. Nothing wrong with that.

An unfettered message board, or an unfettered members-only section of it, might also fall in this category. A benefit to certain members who take pleasure in it, but not advancing the PDGA or disc golf. So I asked is this is a benefit we want to provide?

Speaking as 1% of 1% of the membership of this organization, I don't think so. I'd prefer the PDGA take the higher ground and allow those who find their entertainment in such boorish behaviour, to find it elsewhere. There are certainly plenty of opportunities out there.

That said, I don't think it's terribly important, either way. I'm little concerned that a raw discussion board hurts future sponsorship or the organization or sport in any significant way, nor do I see any great harm in the current, overly tight (to my taste) guidelines. There are more important things is disc golf, and far more important things outside of disc golf, than this.