Why am i being charged $7.50 to sign up for an event. Wow, thin ice. Let me tell you. I just signed up for an event, the Maple Hill Open, and i was charged a fee of $7.50 by the PDGA. Way to support me, supporting you.

Why am i being charged $7.50 to sign up for an event. Wow, thin ice. Let me tell you. I just signed up for an event, the Maple Hill Open, and i was charged a fee of $7.50 by the PDGA. Way to support me, supporting you.




Nice "service" eh?

I will not use them if it is possible...........

Well, what sucks is i had to. It was the only way to get in.

Well, what sucks is i had to. It was the only way to get in.



We can't send checks or anything? If not that is LAME!

No time...I got the last spot...And the touring pro spots are gonna go quick.

Fing lame! I was wanting to play that event but due to the PDGA's wack schedule I'm not 100%. IMO they should not open registration 6 month in advance.

Absolutely no intentions of beating a dead horse here. I'm simply trying to gather information about what I can do to make my online registration service better for the player. Also let me pre-empt this message by saying that I have zero control over pdgasignup.com or any of the PDGA's technology. What I do have control over is how titleDISC operates. While I know that this won't help you in your curent situation... I'm hoping to make titleDISC better for future tournaments that you participate in.

First, it's worth mentioning that *every* business in the online registration industry that chooses to accept credit cards must pay a percentage fee to a credit card processing company. The going rate is about 2.5% plus 30 cents. Then there are costs associated with having the server online, etc. For titleDISC, it amounts to approximately 20 cents per entry on an average month, on top of the fees we already have to pay the credit card company, and we haven't made a penny of profit yet.

I've been toying with the idea of changing titleDISC's rate structure to be as close to exactly $1.00 profit per entry as I can make it. That would mean approximately 2.5% plus $1.50. For a $162 entry fee like the Maple Hill Open, the fee would be $5.55. I'm also working on augmenting titleDISC's services so that you get a little bit more bang for your buck... does this sound like a more reasonable rate?

I know that this thread wasn't started to talk about titleDISC, and I don't intend to drift it any further. I just wanted to glean some information about what players *do* feel is an acceptable fee for using online registration. Please let me know what you think.

Online reg is AWESOME!!! Makes everything much faster and safer in my opinion...........I mean who nowadays doesnt have a debit card from their bank??? I mean if you have a check book im almost POSITIVE you can get a debit card..........Log online at a library or someone elses house and BANG your registered no worries.........No worrying about if you envelope got oppened 151st and the tournament only had 150 spots.......No if you live in Cali and the tournament is in MI the people from the closer states get first bid.........No worries about it getting "lost in the mail" nothing.........You pay you click your in..........I dont think 5 or 6 bucks on top of a 150 dollar entry is really anything to assure your in right that second.

Sounds pretty fair to me...........I mean after 150 entry whats another 6 bucks???

If I'm not mistaken, the processing fee violates Visa/MC regulations, especially since it differs by tournament. If they find out, V/MC will fine the [censored] out of the CC processor, which will be passed on to whomever opened the account.

Entry should include the fee. So MHO should have cost $170 with no fee.

Entry should include the fee. So MHO should have cost $170 with no fee.



The one problem you have with that is then almost every pro would multply the 170 by the # of players and B itch when the payout was based on 162(or whatever it eventually is) per player.
Happens everywhere ALL the time.

The TD could have done it that if he wanted to and then posted that 7.50 per entry would cover signup fees, but people would B itch about that too, so either way it's a lose, lose situation.

The MSDGC and now MHO were always available on 1/1 for the alst several years and only online and always sold out in 24 hours or so, so how can anyone(Matt Hall AKA scooter)say they are stunned that this happened. the ONLY thing that changed was this year it was on PDGA instead of MS for signup.

If you want to get in, wait for the inevitable EBAY spots that will eventually show up or send Steve 1000 bucks in unmarked bills to make one of the other spots disappear. :D

I have to wait 2 more years to play in this event as I won't be GM aged until then, as Steve hates 40-50 year old guys, :Dbut I can GUARANTEE you that I will be one of the first ones in on Jan. 1st 2010 for the MHO 3.

Keith

If I'm not mistaken, the processing fee violates Visa/MC regulations, especially since it differs by tournament. If they find out, V/MC will fine the [censored] out of the CC processor, which will be passed on to whomever opened the account.


You are mistaken. Visa/MC do not have regulations for how much or how little a business can charge the public for a processing fee. We all have to use clearing houses which are subject to their regulations. They charge a percentage, as I outlined above.

As for the fee being part of the entry, titleDISC has recently implemented an option that would allow something similar, if the TD chooses. so far, no TDs have chosen to use it. Doesn't it really end up the same in the end, though? IMHO, it could result in players getting upset at payout amounts because they didn' realize that credit card processing fees were part of what they paid. I suppose time will tell.

If you add a $7 surcharge because someone wants to pay by credit card, you're gonna get hit. Hard. The way around it is:

a. Offer a x% discount to people who pay by cash/check, or
b. Build into the total cost like Bob said.

It goes along with businesses not being allowed to set a minimum/maximum purchase amount to be able to pay by CC.

I believe this has become more laxed recently under the premise that everyone gets charged a fixed fee across the board. You'd be alright if everyone got charged $7 no matter what tourney they sign up for, but on the pdga website it fluctuates by tournament. Compare the $3 fee for BG Ams to the MHO's $7. Additionally, you can't say the fee is specifically for covering your processing fees. Just say it helps keep the site up.

there's always the possibility that I missed something, but I recently spent a considerable amount of time reviewing and implementing PCI standards for a project at work. Part of this meant that I had to review not only PCI's rules and regulations, but Visa/MC/Discover/Amex's as well. The only fee structure regulations I remember seeing had to do with clearing houses.

Regardless, the fees that we charge aren't just for Credit Card users, they are for anyone who uses the online registration process. We just use most of it to pay for the credit card processing fees. That meets the rules you mentioned above as well.

on the pdga website it fluctuates by tournament. Compare the $3 fee for BG Ams to the MHO's $7.



Pay attention ABCD, as mentioned by Joshua, Steve, and others it is percentage based on price - lower entry for BG ams means lower fee, higher entry for MHO means higher fee. :p

Argh! That's my POINT KEITH! You can't charge a variable rate!!!!!! Let me know when you get the first $500/day fine.

this is why I just use PayPal as my "online" payment choice...$2 service charge across the board...AM, Pro, A tier, C tier...doesn't matter.

Argh! That's my POINT KEITH! You can't charge a variable rate!!!!!! Let me know when you get the first $500/day fine.



Won't happen with my system as I don't charge the players or TD's ANY fee. It comes out of sponsorship money.

So I don't have to worry about anything you are saying. :D

Why am i being charged $7.50 to sign up for an event. Wow, thin ice. Let me tell you. I just signed up for an event, the Maple Hill Open, and i was charged a fee of $7.50 by the PDGA. Way to support me, supporting you.




Nice "service" eh?

I will not use them if it is possible...........



Gentlemen,

Nobody likes paying fees of any kind but in all fairness, credit card processing and handling fees are standard for all online tournament registration services. The $7.50 fee charged by PDGAsignup.com on the $162 entry for the Open at Maple Hill is only 4.6% of the entry fee. Compare this to the standard 6% currently charged by another known provider, the 5% charged by the retail outlet owned by the TD of the OMH in their simple plan, or the percentage charged by almost any other online tournament registration service and you will see that you are getting a pretty good deal. I am sure that other providers will be able to offer cheaper fees for certain events and that is OK as our intention is not to undercut the market. The primary reason for the PDGA offering this service is to provide a valuable service that many of our members and tournament directors have requested that we offer, at a fair price where the program is financially self sufficient. The best part of PDGAsignup in my opinion, is that any money that may be leftover after we pay all of the associated costs will be used to support programs that promote the sport of disc golf.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

Hi Brian

Is there any reason you're aware of that would prevent European events from taking advantage of this service?
I assume I could use Paypal, but does it support Maestro?
(http://www.maestrocard.com/)

Regards
Neil

Neil,

I would be more than happy to look into this for you but I am guessing that it would be difficult for us to manage this from the states due to the potential complexities of money exchange rates. The U.S. dollar is pretty weak right now and I am not knowledgable enough on the subject to know if this would have a negative effect on us providing this service to European events. I'll let you know something as soon as I can get all of the details. Perhaps this is a service that PDGA Europe can look into providing?

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

The $7.50 fee charged by PDGAsignup.com on the $162 entry for the Open at Maple Hill is only 4.6% of the entry fee. Compare this to the standard 6% currently charged by another known provider, the 5% charged by the retail outlet owned by the TD of the OMH in their simple plan, or the percentage charged by almost any other online tournament registration service and you will see that you are getting a pretty good deal.



I thought this topic was dead, but in fairness you also have to look at the BG ams fee... $3.50 on pdgasignup.com for a $35 intermediate entry. That's 10%. Almost every one of the events on PDGAsignup.com charges more than the examples you've quoted above. MHO is the one exception. If I change the titleDISC fee structure (this is almost certain right now), then PDGAsignup.com will hold the title of "Most Expensive Online Disc Golf Registration Service" for every event rather than just 95% of them.

Back on topic, the fee is a necessary part of the equation, whether you build it into the event price or not. The credit card companies also have no quarrel with this structure, as we charge a convenience fee for online registration that is not specific to credit card purchases. chargin a flat $2 per entry isn't a bad idea, but it costs the tournament money. titleDISC is set up to allow the TD choices for how registration fees get paid. If they are able to secure sponsorship for the services and would like to subsidize in whole or in part, then we can accommodate that. If they cannot, the player covers the cost like normal. Once again, it's necessary and all the different options for paying it are just different ways of stating the same thing. In the end, the ratio of dollars spent to dolars paid out is the same.

the exchange rate should not matter, as it doesnt matter what the original currency is. paypal can handle converting euros to dollars, so europe could use titledisc or any other service provider who takes paypal. fee distribution can also be done via paypal. right now its cheap for europe to use, cuz the currency market has shifted in their favor. rather than a negative effect, this is a wonderful time for any vendor to introduce online registration services in europe.

Joshua,

The subject of this thread was the online registration fees for the Open at Maple Hill. The numbers I gave are entirely accurate and I stand by the statements I have made on this thread as well as all others in regards to online registration. I purposely did not mention your company by name on this thread but since you did, I have no problem posting this comparison. Using the current fees charged by the two online services, the processing and handling fees for the Open at Maple Hill (the subject of this thread) would be $7.50 using PDGAsignup.com and $9.72 using TitleDisc.

I am very sorry that you once again feel that it is necessary to attack the PDGA's online service with inaccurate and misleading information. 95% is a very bold statement, especially when you have no idea what percentage we charge on the various entry fees! How about we make a friendly wager on this assertion and the loser makes a $1,000 donation to the International Disc Golf Center endowment fund? Of course this wager would be based upon the current fees and not any new fees that you might introduce in the future.

The question I have for you, and one that the readers of this forum might be interested in is, why would TitleDisc, a private for-profit business, deliberately post inaccurate information about PDGAsignup.com?

You are correct in that the $3.50 fee for recreational and Intermediate divisions at Bowling Green Ams is 10% of their the entry fee but you are being somewhat misleading by using only those select divisions in your example. The fee percentage for an advanced player at Bowling Green is 6.3% compared to 6% on your site. The $3.50 fee was arrived at by averaging the lowest and highest cost entry fee and basing the percentage (7.7%) on the average entry fee of $45. You may use a different method and you may be able to offer a better price for this particuar event. I clearly stated in my post above that some providers would be able to offer the service cheaper for some events and that is OK with us as we are not attempting to undercut anyone. Our goal is to provide the service at a fair price and cover our costs. We feel that a $3.50 fee is fair and will help us meet this goal. Would you prefer that we try to undercut you and other providers? Would this be fair to you? Would this be fair to our members, whose dues we would potentially have to use to cover the costs of offering this service?

I am sorry that you perceive us as unfair competition but we are providing a valuable service that many of our members have requested that we offer. The bottom line is that this PDGA service is optional and tournament directors can choose to use anyone they wish for online registration. If they can find a reliable service that is less expensive, I would certainly encourage them to use it.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

good god, nothing Josh has said can be remotely considered an "attack" it is barely criticism, and is not misleading at all. in fact, BG's representation of titlediscs fees is at least as innaccurate. one might ask why the PDGA Director, who is competing with titledisc in the online reg space, would make public statements about the vendors his organization is supposed to serve. BG calls titlediscs motives into question. on the message board, such a tactic might be considered as attacking the poster rather than the argument. some might also call it a COI. i hope someone can tell us again how it came to be that the org charged with doing good for the sport got into direct competition with the sports existing vendors and also charge a premium price for identical services.

i just paid the $7.50 for the Open at Maple Hill. i also paid $3.00 just for the privilege of renewing my membership electronically - something that OUGHT to SAVE the PDGA a substantial amount of money. i paid LESS for my vehicle registration because i did it online. using the PDGA model, the state should have charged me an extra $5 or so for the privilege of making them more efficient. like it or not, the perception is building that the PDGA is more interested in generating dollars than it is in anything else. entering the space was bad enough. charging ludicrous service fees only entrenches that perception.

as yes, the site IS ugly. it also takes way too many clicks to get through and requires too much re-entry of identical data. its a below average process flow. titledisc presents a better, more streamlined process, but its also ugly. :eek:

And one might ask why a PDGA board member is making public statements about the PDGA director... or are you no longer on the PDGA board?

ugly!?! <insert inappropriate personal attack here>

I got my 95% figure by looking at every single event currently available on pdgasignup.com and comparing them to the rates that titleDISC currently offers. 95% was an approximation... the *only* event I could find that was cheaper on pdgasignup.com was the MHO. There's nothing misleading about that, it's just a fact.

I've already announced that every new event on titleDISC wil adopt the new fee structure. I would gladly take that bet if titleDISC made anywhere close to enough money to cover the bet. I'm providing a service with titleDISC, not making a living. the $1 profit per entry of the new fee structure will simply cover the time and effort it takes to keep titleDISC at the forefront of online registration.

oh and no... you didn't mention titleDISC by name, but you did mention 6%, and it's not very hard to figure out who you were referring to, especially given that there's a thread 2 clicks away with all the gory details.


The question I have for you, and one that the readers of this forum might be interested in is, why would TitleDisc, a private for-profit business, deliberately distort the truth and use inaccurate information about PDGAsignup.com to promote themselves?


Hey pot, the kettle called. you're black.

I have distorted nothing. do I need to draw up a complicated spreadsheet with charts and graphs for you to believe me? Can't you just do the comparison yourself? you've quoted MHO many times as your triumph over titleDISC's 10-year-old fee structure... can't you also compare *any* of the other events?

How about letting a dead horse lie, eh? you do your thing and I'll do mine. May the better business model win.

i didnt sign a gag order and have not attacked, belittled, misrepresented, or picked a fight with anyone. should i only post if my opinion matches the ED's? josh does not seem to be the antagonist here.

You can post your opinions, but when you opinions question or go against the operations of the PDGA staff, then you (as a PDGA board member) need to keep them in proper channels and not out in public.

Brian should have resisted this mini flame fest. I forgot to bring my marshmallows.

its hard to resist, even tho i agree that two wrongs do not make a right. at the same time, i'm only responding to what i read - i'm not out here making the first move. i guess i'm the marshmellow man this time? : :p

http://www.citypaper.net/blogs/clog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/staypuft1.jpg

....Log online at a library or someone elses house and BANG your registered no worries.........



Do that on my wireless and your debit card will be mine. SSL...ha! Actually I have redirector, mogrify upside down going now to mess with the neighbors:

IPtables is Fun! (http://www.ex-parrot.com/~pete/upside-down-ternet.html)

hopefully nobody's going to be using your wireless...

Kidding....but you really should be careful out there....

sidejacking anyone? (http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=142127&page_number=3)

yes. never use any wireless network matching the pattern /*vicious*/ :D

yes....networks are wonderful without the users, $/dev/null/bald$