This is for Za.

You want to be really mad? Watch this, it shows just how little taxes Big Business really pays.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tax/view/

If a "Big Business" makes a profit, it pays that profit to its shareholders. It's shareholders then pay income taxes or corporate gains taxes on the distribution they receive. Why should that money be taxed twice?

It's like this: suppose you get nominated to make the beer run and everyone chips in. You go buy two six-packs of beer in a state that taxes beer. You pay your tax and go to the course. Then you divide up the beer three each with your foursome. Do you pay taxes again when you divide up the beer?

Corporate earnings are taxed twice every time. The first time when they count up how much the corporation earned and the second time when it is distributed to the shareholders.

If a "Big Business" makes a profit, it pays that profit to its shareholders. It's shareholders then pay income taxes or corporate gains taxes on the distribution they receive. Why should that money be taxed twice?

It's like this: suppose you get nominated to make the beer run and everyone chips in. You go buy two six-packs of beer in a state that taxes beer. You pay your tax and go to the course. Then you divide up the beer three each with your foursome. Do you pay taxes again when you divide up the beer?

Corporate earnings are taxed twice every time. The first time when they count up how much the corporation earned and the second time when it is distributed to the shareholders.



Well, let's see, do you mean beyond the fact that it's illegal or are you just talking how the law would be if you wrote it?

So, tell me, how much of Microsoft's profits go to their shareholders? You know as well as I do that Exxon-Mobil isn't pumping their billions of dollars of profits into dividends to shareholders. The money that shareholders make is based off of trading their stocks which become worth more as the company is valued more. The dividends paid are rarely if ever equal to company profit and in some cases (see Microsoft) non-existent. The money the company makes stays in house and often enough is paid in huge bonuses to management.

Since I know the next thing you're going to say is "well, management then pays their taxes," I will point out that the video shows that indeed, management doesn't pay their taxes any more than the company does. Beyond that, when I make money, I pay taxes on it. If I then hire a maid to clean my house and pay her, she pays taxes on what she's earned. According to you, this is double taxation.

Watch the video before drawing a conclusion Bruce. When I see that most of the top 100 companies pay at tax rates around 15%, and that their total tax support of the government has dropped from about 14% to 7% in the last 20 years I think there's something wrong. Given that Big Business gets huge government benefits (contracts, and the use of government supported services such as roads, airports, infrastructure etc.) to make trillions of dollars I do come to the conclusion that they are getting more than they are paying for.

BTW Bruce, even if I believed your notion, why would it be that the shareholders should pay taxes? Why shouldn't it be that the company pays the tax and the shareholder be given a pass? I'd support that notion. Of course, I can't buy Congress to get that into law...

Neither, we should be taxed on what we spend, not what we earn.

Jerry you removed your post too quickly... But not fast enough :)


Lyle,

It is not quite as simple as that. There are different types of stock holders and yes some stock holders DO get some of the profits made. Not all by any means, but yes some do.

As for major oil companies, they are making quite a bit of money right now, there is no doubt, but I don't remember people argueing that the oil company taxes should be lowered when they were loosing money. I work in that industry and the oil companies have been loosing money for years. This is why most of the US oil refineries are in horrible shape and going through massive rebuilding now, while they are making money.

Additionally, there are plenty of companies that have incorporated profit sharing which allows the companies to push the profits back to the workers. One of the best examples of this is Kingston Memory back 10 years ago. The smallest profit sharing bonus they paid was something like $12000 to one of their janitorial staff.

If a company is doing something illegal, then they need to be prosecuted, but just because a company makes money and follows the allowed rules, does not mean they are evil.



Several things,

The examples given in the video are egregious, you should watch it.

Just who you foolin' Jerry? Big oil's lost money for years.

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Big oil separates out their refinery business under a different business heading, rakes in billions under their drilling end, and then claims they're losing millions under their refining side, and then says we're not making any money. I'm not impressed with business and legal movements that make it "look" like oil is losing money. Exxon-Mobil has been the most profitable company in the world for years and only just got caught by some Chinese companies in the last year or so (and that is strictly on paper).

As for profit sharing. Show me. I can find you a hundred cases just like the one you showed. Then I can show you hundreds of thousands that aren't. Don't pull out a great case that supports the notion and present it as the norm when it's the exception. The fact is that Big Business is paying significantly less taxes than you and I are and is reaping significantly larger benefits. When those companies and their top staff have grown increasingly rich while leaving the rest of us behind, I have to wonder at any argument that says it's O.K. for them to pay almost no taxes.

Neither, we should be taxed on what we spend, not what we earn.



I agree! But that includes big business and all it's costs.

Who Pays Taxes? Well,

the top 25% pay about 83% of all income tax, THATS ALL INCOME TAX THAT IS COLLECTED!!!

The top 50% pay about 96% of all income tax

The bottom 50% pay about 4%

I hate taxes, just like most people, but don't let the lib dems convince you that a higher tax on the rich is the answer to all your money problems, achievement and success is taxed enough in America. Call "them" big business, the rich, the well to do, whatever, they are the business people who you probably aspire to be someday, and have provided a job for you or someone you know. Being penalized for success is not right, it's just a part of socialism, and it is what you get with the Dems.

Sorry, I had a bad day! lol needed to vent

... and to whom much has been given, much will be required.

As a registered Democrat, I hate the "liberal Dems" giant slop brush we all get painted with. :mad:

Who Pays Taxes? Well,

the top 25% pay about 83% of all income tax, THATS ALL INCOME TAX THAT IS COLLECTED!!!

The top 50% pay about 96% of all income tax

The bottom 50% pay about 4%

I hate taxes, just like most people, but don't let the lib dems convince you that a higher tax on the rich is the answer to all your money problems, achievement and success is taxed enough in America. Call "them" big business, the rich, the well to do, whatever, they are the business people who you probably aspire to be someday, and have provided a job for you or someone you know. Being penalized for success is not right, it's just a part of socialism, and it is what you get with the Dems.

Sorry, I had a bad day! lol needed to vent



Did you watch the piece? If you do you'll find that the top basically uses every loophole ever envisioned not to pay taxes. The numbers you've given are those generated by the riche to prove that they're supporting the poor. The reality is somewhat different. Turns out the middle class is supporting the riche...

BTW - read anita's post. The rich in this country owe their wealth to the tools that are paid for by taxes and yet they feel they should be exempt from paying. Pretty sad IMO.

Sorry but I agree with Anita...........As our business has grown over the years, it has gotten to a point that most of any futher growth is taken away by taxes. I have no incentive to work my arse off and see half of it taken away and then given away to others. :(

The problem with the government and taxes is that they can't give me anything they haven't already taken from me. :o

And I don't feel like I should be exempt from taxes but I **** sure don't feel like I should be at a 30%+ tax bracket either! As for any taxes I don't pay because of deductions, well I can't deduct what I don't spend, so any deductions I have is just money I have spent in the community already.
Any one want to trade tax bills this year? :o

I only wish I was in the 35 percent tax bracket

Hey, at least it is not 70 percent anymore.

I like the guy who was complaining about a 7 million dollar tax bill on the 30 plus million he made.

Blade refuses to pay taxes (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/business/14tax.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin)

The numbers don't lie. They aren't "generated" by anyone. As mind-bending as it is, the fact remains, that the bottom 50% pays only 4% of all income tax.

Recognizing that fact doesn't excuse corruption at any level. It doesn't make you agree with me that the other 50% are overtaxed. It doesn't even make you a Republican! But it sure as heck makes me say THANK GOD FOR CAPITOLISM AND THAT OTHER 50%!

BTW, I never called you a lib dem Anita. But if you think taxing people who are already over-taxed is the answer, then you probably are a liberal Democrat! It's not a put down or personal attack, necessarily! ;)

The other interesting point is that the numbers are after the "rich" have employed every trick they can find to reduce their tax burden.

(just like all of the poor do)

I can't think of anyone that doesn't use every valid tax loophole they can find.

I do find it interesting that when people talk about big business, it's called "loopholes" but when they're talking about the small fry it's called "every possible deduction."

BTW, I never called you a lib dem Anita. But if you think taxing people who are already over-taxed is the answer, then you probably are a liberal Democrat! It's not a put down or personal attack, necessarily! ;)



I just get sick and tired of people using the old hack "liberal Democrat" tag line. There are many types of Democrats as there are Republicans. It's not fair or accurate to call every Republican a "conservative" or all Democrats as "liberal".

Everyone thinks that they are "over taxed". I don't know anyone who want to pay more.

It is patently WRONG for someone making a 7 figure income to pay no tax. People who make that kind of money do so because they live in a capitalistic society. Warren Buffet has NO PROBLEM paying taxes.

The biggest problem with the tax system is that it is perceived as unfair because of the instances where the very wealthy do not pay their "fair share".

I never said all dems are libs, but I also never said every disc is round! If you don't like the implication of "being a duck", then don't walk, talk, or act like a duck!

I Never said anyone wanted to pay more taxes. Everyone IS overtaxed. It's not a matter of "thinking" or feeling, we are overtaxed in America. In every income bracket, it's not hard to prove.

I never said it was right for someone like that to not have to pay tax.

You sure hear alot of things that aren't even said! :confused: If you look to be offended Anita, you will never fail to have your feathers ruffled. The point I was trying to make is that even though there is corruption of the highest order, big business is still what keeps this thing moving at a rate that no society in the history of mankind has ever experienced. We live in an incredible country, with opportunities out the ying yang, because capitolism is alive and well. Socialists don't want to hear that.

My feathers are seldom ruffled. ;)

Actually, Warren Buffet thinks he should pay more tax, so I guess he's not overtaxed. :D

He understands that it IS the capitalist system that gives him the means to make the money that he does. That is my whole point in saying that "to whom much has been given, much will be required". It's sort of a moral obligation. :D

No where did I say anything about taxing the socks off of the rich. All I'm saying (in a hypothetical way) is that the tax system seems out of whack because there are instances where stinking rich people do not pay taxes. Remember Leona Helmsley?

Which reminds me of the old Steve Martin gag about not paying taxes on a million bucks.... first, get a million bucks, then don't pay taxes. When the IRS comes around, tell them "I forgot".

Warren Buffet has NO PROBLEM paying taxes.



I found this quite funny considering he was just saying this recently


Buffett is for a higher capital gains tax, stating that he only paid 18% of his income for 2006 ($46.9 million) in total federal taxes, while his employees paid 33% of theirs despite making far less money.

The next time you hear a politician use the
>
>word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about
>
>whether you want the 'politicians' spending
>
>YOUR tax money.
>
>A billion is a difficult number to comprehend,
>
>but one advertising agency did a good job of
>
>putting that figure into some perspective in
>
>one of its releases.
>
>
>
>
>
>A. A billion seconds ago it was 1959.
>
>
>
>B. A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.
>
>
>
>C. A billion hours ago our ancestors were
>
> living in the Stone Age.
>
>
>
>D. A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet.
>
>
>
>E. A bil lion dollars ago was only 8 hours and
>
> 20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.
>
>
>
>While this thought is still fresh in our brain, let's take a look at New
>Orleans It's amazing what you can learn with some simple division
>
>
>
>Louisiana Senator, Mary Landrieu (D), is presently asking the Congress for
>$250 BILLION to rebuild New Orleans . Interesting number, what does it
>mean?
>
>
>
>A. Well, if you are one of 484,674 residents of
>
> New Orleans (every man, woman, child), you
>
> each get $516,528.
>
>
>
>B. Or, if you have one of the 188,251 homes in
>
> New Orleans , your home gets $1,329,787.
>
>
>
>C. Or, if you are a family of four, your family
>
> gets $2,066,012.
>
>
>
>Washington , D.C . HELLO! !! ... Are all your calculators broken??
>Tax his land,
>Tax his wage,
>Tax his bed in which he lays.
>Tax his tractor,
>Tax his mule,
>Teach him taxes is the rule.
>Tax his cow,
>Tax his goat,
>Tax his pants,
>Tax his coat.
>Tax his ties,
>Tax his shirts,
>Tax his work,
>Tax his dirt.
>Tax his tobacco,
>Tax his drink,
>Tax him if he tries to think.
>Tax his booze,
>Tax his beers,
>If he cries,
>Tax his tears.
>Tax his bills,
>Tax his gas,
>Tax his notes,
>Tax his cash.
>Tax him good and let him know
>That after taxes, he has no dough.
>If he hollers,
>Tax him more,
>Tax hi m until he's good and sore.
>Tax his coffin,
>Tax his grave,
>Tax the sod in which he lays.
>Put these words upon his tomb,
>'Taxes drove me to my doom!'
>A nd when he's gone,
>We won't relax,
>We'll still be after the inheritance TAX!!
>Accounts Receivable Tax
>Building Permit Tax
>CDL License Tax
>Cigarette Tax
>Corporate Income Tax
>Dog License Tax
>Federal Income Tax
>Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
>Fishing License Tax
>Food License Tax
>Fuel Perm it Tax
>Gasoline Tax
>Hunting License Tax
>Inheritance Tax
>Inventory Tax
>IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax),
>IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax),
>Liquor Tax,
>Luxury Tax,
>Marriage License Tax,
>Medicare Tax,
>Property Tax,
>Real Estate Tax,
>Service charge taxes,
>Social Security Tax,
>Road Usage Tax (Truckers),
>Sales Taxes,
>Recreational Vehicle Tax,
>School Tax,
>State Inc ome Tax,
>State Unemployment Tax (SUTA),
>Telephone Federal Excise Tax ,
& gt;Telephone Federal Universal Service Fe e Tax,
>Telephone Federal, State and Local Su rcharge Tax,
>Telephone Minimum Usage Su rcharge Tax,
>Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax,
>Telephone State and Local Tax,
>Telephone Usage Charge Tax,
>Utility Tax,
>Vehicle License Registration Tax,
>Vehicle Sales Tax,
>Watercraft Registration Tax,
>Well Permit Tax,
>Workers Compensation Tax.
>
>STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
>Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago,
>and our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
>We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the
>world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.
>
>What happened? Can you spell 'politicians!'
>
>And we still have to 'press
>1' for English.

Fantastic! Thanks for putting 1,000,000,000 in perspective and combining it with a history lesson about taxes. And, as you say, "politicians" happened to promote it.

Read "Free Lunch"

It's a great expose' on how the rich play the tax system. It turns out that the rich complain about how the poor are taking so much out of the system while taking more out themselves. It's sort of like a revolving door. Here, I pay my 17% taxes :Dand then I take the equivalent of 40% back. The middle class, supporting the rich all the way... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Taxes under Clinton 1999 * * * * * * * * Taxes under Bush 2008



Single making 30K - tax $8,400 * * * * * Single making 30K - tax $4,500



Single making 50K - tax $14,000 * * * * * Single making 50K - tax $12,500



Single making 75K - tax $23,250 * * * * * Single making 75K - tax $18,750



Married making 60K - tax $16,800 * * * * * Married making 60K- tax $9,000



Married making 75K - tax $21,000 * * * * * Married making 75K - tax $18,750



Married making 125K - tax $38,750 * * * * * Married making 125K - tax $31,250

U.S. Federal Individual Income Tax Rates History, 1913-2008 (http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html)

Post deleted by Alacrity

Is he looking at the same numbers that I am looking at ?

Taxes under Clinton 1999 * * * * * * * * Taxes under Bush 2008



Single making 30K - tax $8,400 * * * * * Single making 30K - tax $4,500



Single making 50K - tax $14,000 * * * * * Single making 50K - tax $12,500



Single making 75K - tax $23,250 * * * * * Single making 75K - tax $18,750



Married making 60K - tax $16,800 * * * * * Married making 60K- tax $9,000



Married making 75K - tax $21,000 * * * * * Married making 75K - tax $18,750



Married making 125K - tax $38,750 * * * * * Married making 125K - tax $31,250

U.S. Federal Individual Income Tax Rates History, 1913-2008 (http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html)



What's your point? There's no comparison to the top 1% here. Those are the ones who are taking out as opposed to putting in. So under Bush there is a reshuffling to make taxes on the middle class a little less (BTW - I'm guessing this is the tax refund Bush gave us) but that just means that our debt grew by a whole bunch.

Right now China owns us, we're borrowing from them (they buy the government bonds that back our deficit). This doesn't seem real smart to me. The fact that the rich aren't paying anything and are taking out from the brackets you show here isn't a good thing...

There is a clear problem here, we need to cut our spending and increase our taxes to cover the costs of those things we have to have (right now that'd by infrastructure). I fail to see how not having the top 1% pay taxes is going to help with this.

Last point, believe it or not, what we pay in taxes has gone up under the Bush admin. Yes, they cut taxes, and funding to states at the same time. So states and local agencies had to raise taxes and fees to cover the costs. What we pay has actually gone up. But again, this isn't the real issue...

[QUOTE]
we need to cut our spending and increase our taxes to cover the costs of those things we have to have [QUOTE]


I'll agree with you on cutting spending.....but raise taxes? You don't get my vote there.

Better yet, let's do away with income tax altogether and implement a national sales consumption tax (i.e. Fair Tax).

I'm in for that.
;)

[QUOTE]
we need to cut our spending and increase our taxes to cover the costs of those things we have to have [QUOTE]


I'll agree with you on cutting spending.....but raise taxes? You don't get my vote there.

Better yet, let's do away with income tax altogether and implement a national sales consumption tax (i.e. Fair Tax).



Absolutely, just so long as it's fair and the rich pay too. Also, I want no loopholes, and when we talk about cutting spending, that includes gifts to the uber-rich. Let's start with no more football stadiums paid for by our tax dollars with all the profit going to the owner. If you're going to build it with my money, then I want the profits coming back to me!

BTW - increasing taxes, in my book, doesn't include the middle class. We're paying for everything right now with big business taking out of the tax base and moving our jobs overseas. They move technologies that were paid for with my tax dollars to China and they make a killing while leaving us with the dept. The least we should do is make them pay.

Example. Exxon Mobil pays taxes in the Middle East and China for access to their oil. In China, that money is used directly to build for Exxon Mobil (specifically roads and infrastructure to drilling sites). The law in this country says that if they pay taxes in China, they don't have to pay taxes here and in fact, get a tax reduction based on that overseas tax paying.

Does anyone wonder then why Exxon Mobil lawyers went to the Chinese government and said "tax us please!"? The law was structured by a state department guy in the 1920s (name of Mellon) for Standard Oil. It was set up as a favor to the Saudis to help both them and Standard Oil. We're still paying for it today...

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/Propertywrongs.gif (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=Propertywrongs.gif)