Ok, I have not posted on this subject, but have been keeping an eye on it.

I personally have a problem with the way CPS [Child Protective Services] operate.

For those living under a rock, the State of Texas CPS went in and took 460 or so kids away from there families and has them spread all over Texas and in some cases in other states.

This was all done based on a phony phone call.

Now I am NOT saying that I approve of the teachings of the FLDS, however I do not agree with how they are being treated.

The State of Texas has also lied several times [or overstated] there case many times. I will get into that more if you want.

But what prompted me to post today is the VICTORY in the courts for some of the families involved.

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I thought CPS was in the business of preventing abuse and protecting children? If they know young girls are getting raped, or will be when they are of "age," then it seems like a no brainer: prevent it. That's their job afterall.

If they know young girls are getting raped



That is the problem, they only have one case, yet take the kids of hundreds of families.

the "claimed" to have 30 cases of underage girls (conception or birth before 18) yet in the last week, several of those cases were proven wrong AGAIN. (the number started MUCH higher)

Here is the problem, it is not rape if you are married. When the cult first moved to Texas, the age of marriage with parents consent was 14. That was quickly changed to 16 AFTER the cult moved here. Polygamy is illegal so the state does not recognize 2nd or 3rd marriages. The FLDS has "spiritual" marriages for those 2nd and 3rd marriages. They only get a marriage license for the 1st marriage. So if the girl was a first marriage, everything is legal. If the girl in a "spiritual" marriage is underage and they fornicate, it is illegal.

Here are the problems they are having. A majority of the children were born in the compound. Sense the FLDS does not like the government, they do not issue birth certificates for a lot of these children. To top it all off, You can not become a member of the FLDS, you have to be born into it, therefor all the women have the same look. They look younger than they really are. One of the women that CPS said was under 18 was actually in her mid 20's in one report I saw.

What gets me is that this cult is not doing anything different that what has been done in many cultures around the world, but we force our ideas on them and prosecute them because we don't agree with them.

We are told the girls are not allowed to have contact with the outside world, YET at least on of the kids CPS kidnapped was from Canada and was visiting her Aunt. They also took the Cell Phones away from all the mothers when they took them off the ranch. CELL PHONES??? Yes, they had cell phones. They also took trips to the local town to buy supplies.


Now it is very hard to defend the FLDS, they have a history of breaking laws and stealing from our government (they call it "Beading the Beast") They do believe a girl "can" be ready for marriage as soon as she menstruates. (but then so do a lot of other cultures) They have also been accused of kicking teen age boys out of the cult. (these boys are referred to as "Lost Boys")

BTW, the lady who called in saying she was impregnated, 16 and married to a 53 year old man was arrested for making false phone calls. She has a history of doing this against this cult for a long time. She has been trying to bring them down.

What gets me is that this cult is not doing anything different that what has been done in many cultures around the world, but we force our ideas on them and prosecute them because we don't agree with them.



Then maybe they should relocate to a locale with more favorable laws...or work to change the laws.

Texas officials plan to ask court block ruling in sect case (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMIST_RETREAT?SITE=ININS&amp;SECTION=HOME&amp;TEMPLAT E=DEFAULT)


Texas child welfare authorities are planning to appeal a ruling that found they had no right to seize more than 440 children from a polygamist sect's ranch.





The Third Court of Appeals in Austin said Thursday that the state failed to show the youngsters were in any immediate danger, the only grounds under Texas law for taking children from their parents without court action.



Yes, those kids were removed without a court action


Child-protection officials argued that five girls at the ranch had become pregnant at 15 and 16 and that the sect pushed underage girls into marriage and sex with older men and groomed boys to enter into such unions when they grew up.



So now they are down to 5??????


The court said the state failed to show that any more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and offered no evidence of sexual or physical abuse against the other children. Half the youngsters taken from the ranch were 5 or younger. Only a few dozen are teenage girls.




Of the 31 people the state initially said were underage mothers, at least 15 were reclassified as adults before the hearings were suspended. One mother is 27.



Told you one was in her 20's.

"They do believe a girl "can" be ready for marriage as soon as she menstruates."

Well goodie gumdrops for them! No girl is "ready for marriage" at the age of 11 or 12. As for "spiritual marriage" give me a break!

It's not about freedom of religion when you are talking about underage girls, it's child abuse, pure and simple. There's a lot of funky stuff that gets passed of by calling it "freedom of religion".

I don't even think a girl is ready to be married at 18, well normal girls.

This is my problem with the situation..

Who are we to judge, based on our own morals, what others do in the way they are brought up. The people in that cult believe you need 3 wifes [or is it 4] to get into heaven. Many other cultures believe that the more wives you have the wealthier you are. There are many cultures that kids as young as 10 [and younger] are married.

On that note, there are also many cultures that have arraigned marriages.

Who are we to judge them.

In the FLDS, the leader has to approve of all marriages. The current leader is doing time for arraigning a marriage of a 14 year old girl. However, in the past, if two people were in love, they would go to the leader and ask if they could be married. This was approved in the past, the current leader had been known to say no and marry off the girl to someone else.

I do have a problem with that.

If you do some research on this cult you will find some bad and good things about them. In general, they are a cult, but they are a cult you and I can not join if we wanted to, you have to be born in it.

My wife says you are unlucky if you were to be born in the cult, my response to that is, were you lucky to be born white, Catholic, and middle class :confused: Are you lucky or unlucky to be born Black, brown or yellow :confused:

All this is food for thought.

I don't thing all 460 kids should have been stolen. If CPS can prove there is danger,then the kids in that family should be removed. But from the research I was able to do, I found that most of the things said about the cult is blown out of proportion.

I still think they are a cult though and I don't agree with there practices.

Who are we to judge, based on our own morals, what others do in the way they are brought up. The people in that cult believe you need 3 wifes [or is it 4] to get into heaven. Many other cultures believe that the more wives you have the wealthier you are. There are many cultures that kids as young as 10 [and younger] are married.





Who are we to judge? Well, polygamy is illegal in this country and has been for years. Not to get preachy, but... Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. In other words, obey the law. Since when is "it's my religion" an excuse for law breaking?

Even though I buy into Christianity, I do not knock any Religion.

No I don't agree with polygamy, yes it is against the law in every state right now and has been for 150 years.

Oh has far as Christianity, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David and King Solomon were all Polygamists. Even Martian Luther an St Augustine approved of polygamy.

For Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah) to become a State in 1896, the state had to outlaw polygamy. The Mormons [LDS] pretty much did away with the practice because of the 1890 Manifesto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1890_Manifesto) . The FLDS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLDS_Church) did not agree with the leaders of the LDS and broke away or were excomunicated. They have been together for over 100 years but organized as the FLDS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLDS_Church) in 1935

The US Supreme court ruling that made Polygamy officially illegal in the US.
Reynolds vs United States 1878 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States)

The Supreme court ruling against the LDS that led to the Manifesto.
Mormons vs United States 1890 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Late_Corporation_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ _of_Latter-day_Saints_v._United_States)

I don't think she was saying Christians do not believe in polygamy, but that Jesus said Christians should obey the law of the land.

That's what I was saying, thanks Gary.

You know it was the Romans that made polygamy illegal.

How ironic.

I don't think I can stress this enough, I DO NOT AGREE with Polygamy or marriage before 18 [actually 20 would be even better]

I am just pointing out that nearly every Religion has a history of Polygamy and that underage marriage is the norm in many cultures.

What I am trying to defend is that the Rule of Law WAS NOT followed in this case of removing the children of over 200 families just because of there religious believes.

Who is to say they [the majority at the time] decides that Christianity is a cult so we should remove your children.

Don't come back and say they were removed because they were being abused, FACT is, they don't have any credible evidence.

I am not arguing Freedom of Religion, even though I should, I am arguing that 460 kids were taken from there mothers without due cause.

In fact, they only had a case against 1 man who has not been in Texas for several years. This was a case the Sheriff was working on.

What did happen was that CPS LIED about how many underage mothers were at the ranch, they lied about widespread abuse that really was not there. The Texas Rangers [who I normally admire] and local law officials lied about the case to. The biggest lie that got press was about the beds in the Temple being used for underage sex. This was a flat out lie. There is an infirmary in the church, the beds were hospital beds and were used if someone became ill during there very long church services. This fact was shown at the 1st trial.

A good editorial article in the Washington Times.

FLDS raid ripples (http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080504/COMMENTARY/170337827)

"They do believe a girl "can" be ready for marriage as soon as she menstruates."

Well goodie gumdrops for them! No girl is "ready for marriage" at the age of 11 or 12. As for "spiritual marriage" give me a break!

It's not about freedom of religion when you are talking about underage girls, it's child abuse, pure and simple. There's a lot of funky stuff that gets passed of by calling it "freedom of religion".



It should also be noted that we've so polluted the world with chemicals that look like hormones, that girls menstruate earlier. So, when it gets down to 10 will that be marryin' age too?

Personally, I'm all for polygamy, any man who marries two women, gets what he deserves. Same goes for any woman who's dumb enough to marry two men - Oh wait, that's not the way it works now is it?

Have you ever considered the hypocrisy of governmental enforcement against the polygamist compound at the same time they subsidize the Welfare Wonderland of our inner cities?


Polygamist Compound
------------------------------
Lots of kids with lots of mothers
Some confusion regarding parenthood
Kids being raised in group settings
Polygamist wedding

State's Attitude:
Shame on you!

Welfare Wonderland State
------------------------------------
Lots of kids with lots of mothers
Lots of confusion regarding parenthood, especially paternal
Kids being raised in group settings in government child care
No wedding required, not even a mockery of one

State's Attitude:
We like you. We'll even call you a victim of society and reward you if you'll have another child out of wedlock.

20/20 did a pretty good piece last night, if you knew what they were talking about, you could see though there reporting. I personally kept telling my wife where they were exadurating the facts, misrepresenting the fact and where they reported the facts.

They did state how much of a tyrant Warren Jeffs is.

They did not mention how many of the problems the cult is having now are a result of Jeffs leadership.

Even though interviews with who they called ''lost boys'' stated they left because of Jeffs and the rules he put into place. In fact every person they interviewed left because of Jeffs and something he did.

But they didn't report that, most people would not know that if they didn't know anything about the cult.

They touched on the fact that Colorado Springs has a lot of single mothers on welfare, but did not mention why they do that. Not at any time did they refer to ''bleeding the beast''

They did not mention at any time that the cult owns companies that do government contracts. That kids as young as 12 have been known to work on those contracts.

But, like I said, the did a pretty good show on the cult and did tell part of the story including how some of those living in the cult think.

oh, one more thing, right after calling all the boys who have left the church ''Lost Boy's'' including saying they were kicked out as soon as they were teenagers, EVERY male they interviewed left at 18 and left because of the rules that Jeffs made. Not one of the boys they interviewed were ''kicked out'' of the cult. In fact, one of the boys mentioned how his family tried to talk him out of leaving.

Breaking News

The Texas Supreme Court has ruled this afternoon that the kids taken from the polygamist compound should be re-united with their parents.

Been busy and there has been a lot of news.

The Judge ruled to send all the kids home.

now it comes out today that this has cost $7 million

Cost of Polygamist Case Tops $7 Million (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/cost-of-polygamist-case-tops-7-million/20080604093909990002)


For comparison, $7 million would pay for 137 police officers in the city of Mesquite, Texas, at a salary of $51,060, according to a figure from a job posting. It would also pay for 180 new teachers at the average statewide salary of $38,857 given by the Texas State Board for Educator Certification and would more than double resources available for a state program aimed at children of incarcerated parents, according to the state's budget for fiscal 2008-09. In that budget, the program receives $5 million.

Texas Child Protective Services referred all questions about the costs of the operation to the state's Health and Human Services department. In response to the Texas Supreme Court ruling last week, CPS said in a statement that it "has one purpose in this case: to protect the children. Our goal is to reunite families whenever we can do so and make sure the children will be safe."



another article from today telling how the investigation will continue (and should within legal means)



The FLDS, which believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway sect of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago. Jessop said this week that the church would not preside over marriages between sect members who were not of legal age.

He sidestepped questions about whether such marriages ever occurred but has said the sect has been unfairly portrayed.

After happy reunions, FLDS faces criminal inquiry (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/04/flds.investigation.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories)

I think this editorial out of San Antonio says it all

Many of the activities at the Yearning for Zion Ranch are repugnant. Some may even be illegal. It's the duty of the state to act with probable cause and respect for due process in investigating those activities.



web page (http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion/editorials/stories/MYSA.060408.OPED_1B_flds1ed.24d9d66.html)

what land is being spoken of when the interpretation of jesus's render unto caesar what is caesars? i believe the earth is gods and only gods as he created it therfore his laws are the laws of the land.
caesars picture on the coins is what christ was refering to . caesar created the money system that was taxed for his own benifit , christ had no part of it.

It has been a few weeks sense I looked anything up on this subject.

Texas had secret plan to separate polygamist mothers, children (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/060408dntexcps.3ba4457.html)

Yes, they separated the Kids from the moms away from the media. They didn't want the backlash they got anyways.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Washington County sends dossiers of select FLDS members to Texas officials (http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700233581,00.html)

This is probably why the overkill when they raided the ranch. To my Knowledge, none of these people lived at the ranch at the time of the raid.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Cost for polygamist raid expected to top $14 million (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/14/polygamist.raid.cost.ap/index.html)

mmmm, 14 million to trample our rights. There was just so many things wrong with the way CPS and the officials did this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lawyer for polygamous prophet's daughter says Texas judge biased (http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9685005)

The daughter of scumbag Warren Jeffs, Teresa Jeffs, is having problems. She is being represented by an attorney that is scheduled to testify against her best interest in court.

The same judge that got overruled by the Texas Supreme Court is hearing this case too.

Jeffs and her mothers lawyers are saying that her attorney has already lied about Jeffs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This article does not attempt to analyze the FLDS religious belief system, nor does it endorse or disapprove of it. The issue of taking children from any family � regardless of its ideology � must be governed by law and due process, not hysteria over religious or political beliefs fanned by a statist press corps.



Whose Children Are They, Anyway? (http://www.thenewamerican.com/node/8344#SlideFrame_1)


In fact, court records indicate that the agency found no credible evidence of any abuse whatsoever in any home at the YFZ Ranch.

the judge had issued a separate order confiscating all the cellphones belonging to both the children and their parents, so that they could not even talk to their lawyers or to each other.



This quote says it all


he gist of the state�s complaint was that female children at the ranch were being groomed for marriage to older men at too young an age and that male children were being encouraged to be sexual predators. The agency asserted that 31 children, aged 14 to 17, were pregnant or had borne children by adults. However, the agency now admits that over half of those 31 persons are actually adults, including one who is 27 years old. At the time of the hearing, the agency could not identify a single child married below the legal age, including the nonexistent �Sarah.� (Texas law allows marriage at age 16, or younger with court approval.) Nor was there testimony that any person was physically abused at the ranch.



The editorial then goes on to state my same reason for being interested in this case.


This episode should be a warning to all families that an arbitrary attack by the state against a family can happen to any of us and that a court will likely not protect the family from overreaching state social workers or false reports of child abuse.

the state dosnt want families to be solid units because a divided people are easier to rule over.
consider the stand you would have with your family, it is under daily attack from a corrupt government from local to the federal leval.there only goal is to divide as to concour.

Yes, it is important to society that "families," as the term is loosely used in the case of the FLDS, are kept together.

It's comical to hear y'all's outrage on this issue, and the ease in which y'all corrupt a rather straight forward issue of rampant child abuse and exploitation into a family unity or libertarian values issue.

Either a complete lack of ability to see the forrest for the trees, or a preconditioned response to believe that government is always wrong.

i have not found a single instance where the U.S. comercial government has my best intrest in their plan of government

Really? How about the Fire Department? Police? Military? Trash pickup?

Are they just all looking out for themselves, and not motivated by the greater public good?

Fire Department? Police? - done by your local city, town or county. In areas like my parents live, the Fire Department in Voluntary and what funds they need come from the county.

Trash Pickup? - In Carrollton, it is done by a private business, Texas Waste Management. They contracted with the city and I pay for it though my Water bill.

Military? - One of the only things the Federal government is responsible. They SHOULD NOT be used to protect other countries boarders or used to support dictatorships or for nation building. That was not the intention of our founding fathers.

As far as what happened to the FLDS.

Based on a phony phone call and rumors over 480 kids were taken from there parents.

Warren Jeffs is a scum bag and is in jail because of it. However, the 10,000 other members of the FLDS can not be held guilty of his crimes unless proven guilty.

Neither the state or CPS has show any proof of wrong doing. Even the case that the local sheriff was working on, the guy was out of state and had been out of state for a long time.

We are a Nation of laws. They must be followed and in this case they were not.

Read the last article I posted, it explains what the problems with this case are.

have you ever been stolen from? and made a police report? did they actively search for any of your hard earned property? ihave and idid and no they didnt.
property taxes pay for fire service.that is far from federal.
our constition says our government is responsible to create money, what does our gov do? the sub contract the fed reserve ,who by the way are no more federal than federal express, try and satisfy a percieved tax debt with a stack of federal reserve notes, they wont take them.
heck when was the last time the men carring guns with badges from the imaginary state or authority ever did anything for you,instead of against you?

An OK article about Scumbags Warren Jeffs daughter who is now 16. She was "Spiritually Married" to one of the Scumbags associates. At the same time, he married a girl who was 11????
Warren Jeffs needs to rot in jail. (and he will)
FLDS leader married off daughter at 15 (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5895744.html)