This week the Tuesday SW Handicap Mini is back at Imperial Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2561).

We'll be playing 18 holes using the normal nine tees plus the newly installed nine alternate tees. Realistic handicaps are based on your PDGA rating and your recent performance on that course.

The ace pot stands at $33. This is a fund raiser for Texas States (http://www.texasstates.org/) so please come out and show your support.

Tee time is 6:00 PM.

Results from this past week:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/handicap_mini_080603.jpg

And to see how the real time handicaps adjust here's the new list for Imperial Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2561) players:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/handicap_mini_imppk.jpg

This full list of rules for the SW Handicap Mini was lost when the HFDS message board when down. I'll rewrite them and get them posted for all to see soon....

ERic

Your handicap system looks pretty good except for one issue. Most handicap systems do not give the player the full value of the calculated number. In bowling, you maybe get 80% of the pin difference. When we've done handicap leagues, we used a sliding scale that ranged from 80% for low handicaps up to 90% for higher handicaps. Just a thought for you so your better players don't get discouraged always getting nipped out by fast improving players.

Your handicap system looks pretty good except for one issue. Most handicap systems do not give the player the full value of the calculated number. In bowling, you maybe get 80% of the pin difference. When we've done handicap leagues, we used a sliding scale that ranged from 80% for low handicaps up to 90% for higher handicaps. Just a thought for you so your better players don't get discouraged always getting nipped out by fast improving players.




Thanks Chuck! I figured that a good handicap scale would have to have some sort of % vs full value. Anyway if it changes to that way I might show up for one. Until then I would have to shoot 1065 to beat a 800 rated player who shoots 865 which seems a little unfair.

This week the Tuesday SW Handicap Mini is back at the ever popular Mo.City Community Park.

We'll be playing 18 holes using the normal nine tees plus Neal's nine alternate tees. (There's a map on the DGCR Course Page (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=938).)

For the SW Handicap Mini realistic handicaps are based on your PDGA rating and/or your recent performance on that course.

The $8 entry fee includes $1 Ace Pot, one $2 Mulligan (to TX States fund), and $5 goes back to payout.

The travelling ace pot stands at $40. This is a fund raiser for Texas States (http://texasstates.org/) so please come out and show your support.

Tee time is June 10, 6:00 PM.

Okay here are the rules by which we've been playing. I'm definitely open to revising and improving them to get more participation.

Goal

To have a regular weekly fun competition wherein everyone starts on an equal playing field.
Whoever steps up their game the most that week, or best handles the weather conditions, etc. wins that week.

This will also be used to raise money for next year's Texas States Tournament through the purchase of $2 Mulligans.

Logistics

We will be playing on courses in the Southwest Houston area starting with a four course rotation:
<ul type="square"> QVCC-the LINKS (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2576)
Imperial Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2561)
Mo.City Community Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=938)
First Colony Aquatic Center (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1264)
[/list]Ideally we'll play 18-holes per course.

Start time should be as close to 6:00 PM as possible.

One travelling Ace Pot for all the courses, i.e. not one per course.

Fees

QVCC: $3 greens, $1 ace, $4 payout, OPTIONAL $2 mulligan to TX States = $8/10

non-QVCC: $1 ace, $5 payout, included $2 mulligan to TX States = $8

Rules

Local handicaps will be calculated per course using a slightly modified version of Chuck Kennedy's PDGA SSA / Player Rating spreadsheet.

Recent scores by players rated over 800 will be used to generate an SSA for each course.

Recent rounds by players and the SSA of a course will be used to calculate a Local Player Rating (similar to their PDGA rating) for each player on each course.

A player's local rating will be used to generate a handicap for them based on one stroke for every ten rating points away from 1000.
Specifically: Local Handicap = 0-ROUND((1000-LocalPlayerRating)/10)

Because the handicaps are based on actual recent rounds they adjust immediately for subsequent weeks. This helps prevent rising star players from riding an obsolete PDGA rating based handicap.

Winners lose one stroke from their handicap for each consecutive week they win, this "Win Streak" effect is reset after a loss.

No 2 meter rule is in effect.

Mulligan must be purchased before play begins.


There are two adjustments made for the purpose of handicap calculations only to prevent sandbagging or tanking rounds...

Any player scoring more than 2 strokes over the average of a given hole will be scored as the average plus two strokes for that hole.

Any player who scores &gt;70 points worse than their Local player rating will have that round discounted from their future ratings calculations.

Thanks to everyone who showed up last night. With a field of 17 it was our largest turnout since we started this regular Mini almost two months ago!

With 70/30% payout for the top two spots this week, here are the results from last night:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/handicap_mini_080610.jpg

(Those that were present may note that I missed a stroke on Randy's handicap last night and thus he takes first place outright now.)

And based on those results here are the new local player ratings for the Mo.City course:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/handicap_mini_mocity_080610.jpg


Next Tuesday (June 17) the SW Handicap Mini will be at First Colony Aquatic Center (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1264). Come out and join the fun.

Thanks Chuck! I figured that a good handicap scale would have to have some sort of % vs full value. Anyway if it changes to that way I might show up for one. Until then I would have to shoot 1065 to beat a 800 rated player who shoots 865 which seems a little unfair.



Matt, your point is valid and I'm mulling over some ideas to try and improve the system to make it as fair as possible for all the participants. But trying to make everyone from ratings of 504-967 happy is a tough thing to do.

Your handicap system looks pretty good except for one issue. Most handicap systems do not give the player the full value of the calculated number. In bowling, you maybe get 80% of the pin difference. When we've done handicap leagues, we used a sliding scale that ranged from 80% for low handicaps up to 90% for higher handicaps. Just a thought for you so your better players don't get discouraged always getting nipped out by fast improving players.

Chuck,

I found and read through your article on handicapping (http://www.discgolf.com/index.php?option=com_mtree&amp;task=viewlink&amp;link_id=1 143 ). Good stuff. I wondered if you had any new sage advice garnered in the almost 20 years since you wrote that.

You obviously advocate fractional strokes in a handicapping system. That's something I hadn't considered, nor encountered the need for... yet. My system is getting better but we haven't yet had much need for a tie-breaker. The percentage adjustment doesn't work well for whole stroke handicaps.

I don't want to run this as a traditional weekly league, but more free running, so players can show up whatever weeks they're available. As such, especially in these early days my biggest issue is new players with no PDGA rating or PDGA members with outdated ratings relative to their current skill level. I'm struggling to find a way to allow these newer players compete on a level playing field with current repeat players that have established accurate handicaps. Any suggestions?

I'd been tossing around the possibility of doing some sort of team play. E.g. highest handicap plays with lowest handicap, etc.. I noticed that your article concludes with the mention of team play. Do you have a recommendation on how to choose teams? An issue I have is that I don't have a predefined number of players each week.

Whatever system I settle on I'd like it to be simple enough that the calculations can be done easily on the spot without the need for significant CPU horsepower. But to make everyone happy, that's looking like a less attainable goal.

Thanks,
ERic

I believe the best handicap system available is the one offered by Disc Golf United (www.discgolfunited.com). We used the same formulas as used for the PDGA SSAs and Ratings and it has the anti-sandbagging plus percentage calcs already built-in for running your league.

One improvement for your league might be to divide by 11.5 instead of 10 in your formula. Continue using whole number handicaps but dividing by 11.5 would be a simple way to add a percentage reduction in the larger handicap numbers.

Teams can be easy with no more calculations. The team handicap could be the sum of the individual handicaps. If you have four players, calculate the decimal value for each person, add them together and then round off for a single number for the 4-person team so it's a little more precise.

Thanks Chuck! I figured that a good handicap scale would have to have some sort of % vs full value. Anyway if it changes to that way I might show up for one. Until then I would have to shoot 1065 to beat a 800 rated player who shoots 865 which seems a little unfair.



Matt, your point is valid and I'm mulling over some ideas to try and improve the system to make it as fair as possible for all the participants. But trying to make everyone from ratings of 504-967 happy is a tough thing to do.



Yeah and going up to 1000+ that way works even worse. don't worry I don't avoid it because of the structure but the fact I am 2 hours from Mo city.

The next SW Handicap Mini is this coming Tuesday (June 17) at First Colony Aquatic Center (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1264).

We'll be playing a full 18 holes. In addition to the standard ten holes we have eight alternate tees layed out (see the new course map (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1264&amp;mode=lf)). Some of these alternate looks at the baskets are brand new and have never been birdied. Will you be the first?!? :cool:

For the SW Handicap Mini realistic handicaps are based on your PDGA rating and/or your recent performance on that course.

The $8 entry fee includes $1 Ace Pot, one $2 Mulligan (to TX States fund), and $5 goes back to payout. Payout will be multiple places depending on the number of players.

The travelling ace pot stands at $57. This is a fund raiser for Texas States so please come out and show your support.

Tee time is 6:00 PM.

This may be of interest only to Chuck &amp; myself but I'll post it here anyway...

I've done some tweaking to the H/C system to scale the values based on Chuck's insights. I'll excerpt the relevant parts of his document here:
A good handicap system adjusts each player's or team's scores so that competitors of different skill levels can compete on roughly equal footing. Ball golf handicaps are based on 80% of the difference between players' average round scores and the official par on the courses played. For example, a golfer who averages 82 on a par 72 course would have an 8 stroke handicap [80% x (82-72)].

Notice that a player only gets 80% of the stroke difference, not 100%. Thus, players must play a little better relative to their normal average to overcome the 20% stroke gap that is "missing" from their handicap adjustment. Our example golfer above must shoot a scratch score of 80 (instead of his normal 82 average) to end up with an adjusted handicapped score of par 72.

I belabor this point because many pros are crybabies when they don't win as often in a handicap league. Pros, with small or sometimes negative handicaps, still retain the long run advantage over higher handicap players. Each round, higher handicap players must overcome their 20% "stroke gap". Thus, better players usually win more prizes over the duration of league play. However, higher handicap players will have their "day in the sun" at least a few times to keep them coming back "fore" more.

[...]

Another improvement [...] is using a handicap percentage that starts at 80.4% and slides up to 90%. If a flat percentage of 80.4% is used to calculate every handicap very high handicap players will have a tough time overcoming their "stroke gap" to ever win a prize. Gradually sliding this percentage up to 90% offsets this problem.


So in a nutshell: take a percentage of their handicap away from every player to make them "step it up" to get back to a good score. Because it's a percentage it effects the lower rated/higher handicapped players harder, this is both good (because it counteracts some volitility in their scoring) and bad (because it grows to be a large chunk of the handicap). To minimize the bad part the percentage is scaled back for higher handicaps.

The handicapping method I've implemented is set up like this:
<ul type="square"> For ratings &lt;=700: handicaps are reduced to 90%
For ratings between 700-970: handicaps are scaled linearly between 90-80%
For ratings between 970-1000: handicaps are reduced to 80%
For ratings &gt;=1000: handicaps have 20% added to them
[/list]One thing that Chuck's sliding scale doesn't directly address is players rated over 1000, where instead of reducing their handicap to 80% you need to add 20% to it to maintain the "stroke gap". At least I think that's the right thing to do.

I've done some "What if?" with the new and old system. Here are the Mo.City handicaps with the old "1 Stroke/10 ratings points off 1000" and the new sliding scale for that same stroke rate.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/MoCity_HC_old_vs_new_1000.jpg

Lastly, here's a "What if?" with the past week's results using three different handicapping systems. On the left is the old "1 Stroke/10 ratings points off 1000", in the middle is a variation with "1 Stroke/12 ratings points off 1000" (effectively an 83% across the board cut), and on the right is the new sliding scale:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/swhc_10vs12vsScale.jpg

(I'm just posting the link instead of the direct image, because it's wide and then messes up the horizontal scrolling for the whole thread.)

For players over 1000, their handicap is going to be a postive number that is added to their score. That positive number is multiplied by the same percentage (80%) as the negative number calculated for a player as many points below 1000. So a 1020 player has the same handicap as the 980 player except it's negative for the 980 and positive for the 1020 player.

For players over 1000, their handicap is going to be a postive number that is added to their score. That positive number is multiplied by the same percentage (80%) as the negative number calculated for a player as many points below 1000. So a 1020 player has the same handicap as the 980 player except it's negative for the 980 and positive for the 1020 player.

Chuck,

For players rated &gt;1000, that seems to contradict your "stroke gap" methodology. See if you agree with this (using easy number for math...):

A 950 player has a handicap of (950-1000)/10 * 80% = -4.
Their "natural" handicap is -5, but they must overcome a stroke gap of 1 stroke to get back to their natural value.

The way I read your message a 1050 rated player would have a handicap of (1050-1000)/10 * 80% = +4.
But by taking 80% of their positive handicap (+5) you haven't given them a harder "stroke gap" to overcome, you've made it even easier for them.

It seems like to be consistent a 1050 player should have this handicap: (1050-1000)/10 * 120% = +6.
I.e. if a 950 player has a 1 shot "stroke gap", then a 1050 player should have a 1 shot stroke gap as well.

ERic


P.S. Bump for the Mini tomorrow!

The next SW Handicap Mini is this coming Tuesday (June 17) at First Colony Aquatic Center (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1264).

We'll be playing a full 18 holes. In addition to the standard ten holes we have eight alternate tees layed out (see the new course map (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1264&amp;mode=lf)). Some of these alternate looks at the baskets are brand new and have never been birdied. Will you be the first?!? :cool:

For the SW Handicap Mini realistic handicaps are based on your PDGA rating and/or your recent performance on that course.

The $8 entry fee includes $1 Ace Pot, one $2 Mulligan (to TX States fund), and $5 goes back to payout. Payout will be multiple places depending on the number of players.

The travelling ace pot stands at $57. This is a fund raiser for Texas States so please come out and show your support.

Tee time is 6:00 PM.

Consider the two scenarios of a 1000 rated player versus a 900 rated player and a 1050 player versus a 950 player. Both are 100 pts apart. At 80% of their 100 pt (10 throws) difference the number of handicap throws apart should be 8 throws, correct? If a 950 player has a -4 handicap, then what should the 1050 player add-on handicap be to equal 8 throws difference? +4 throws, correct?

What you've written is mathematically correct, but I don't see how it makes sense in terms of a handicap.

A 950 player will average 5 strokes worse than SSA, so to get him back to SSA you'd naturally "give" him 5 strokes. To make it harder (stroke gap) for him you only "give" him 80% of his handicap or 4 strokes.

So now to get back to SSA, a 950 player must shoot 1 stroke better than his average.

A 1050 player will average 5 strokes better than SSA, so to get him back to SSA you'd naturally "take away" 5 strokes. But by your logic you say only "take away" 80%, or 4 strokes.

Thus, to get back to SSA, a 1050 player need only shoot 1 stroke worse than his average.

To me that doesn't seem fair or consistent.


The goal of the 80% stroke gap is to make it harder for the player to get back to SSA, right? Shouldn't the 1050 player also have to shoot 1 stroke better than his average, e.g. +6 strokes or +20% handicap?

Your mistake in this is referring to 1000 as the magic number, not the differential between players. The reality is that the handicap calcs have to do with determining the proper adjustment in reference to the highest rated player, actually among all players, and that's how the math is set up. Why shouldn't the difference between adjusted scores between players 100 rating points apart not be the same at all levels? if it makes you feel better, it's possible to do handicaps in relation to 1100 rather than 1000 so that everyone has a negative handicap. The 1050 player would have a -4 and the 950 player would have a -12. Notice that they are still 8 shots apart. That might be simpler to explain and everyone gets a deduction then.

Chuck,

Gotcha. And calculating handicaps from 1100 makes the numbers easier to explain. Thanks.

I'm now tinkering with the scaling percentages. With a base rating of 1100 I'm considering:

Ratings &gt;= 1050 @ 80%.
Ratings &lt;= 700 @ 85%.
Ratings between 700-1050 scale linearly.

ERic

Sounds good. Let us know how it works out once the league is done.

This isn't really a traditional league, just an ongoing series of Minis. I don't want people to feel obligated to show up every week. Just make it when they can. Ideally the handicap system puts everyone on a level playing field. After a few rounds are in the books the handicap values should be pretty accurate.

Results for the 6/17 Mini aren't valid since we only made it through 12 holes before the first of this week's big thunderstorms blew through town.


But for next week (Tuesday June 24)...!

To celebrate the latest PDGA ratings release scheduled for 6/24 we'll be adding a new course to the Southwest Handicap Mini rotation: The Erickson/Payne Home DGC (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2687).

Marcus and Steve have a sweet little course designed in their own back yards. A little bit of water, a lot of trees, a cruel OB cul-de-sac, and a couple bomber holes make this a fun course to play.

The Driving Directions and Latitude/Longitude coordinates on this course page are correct: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2687


For the SW Handicap Mini realistic handicaps are based on your PDGA rating and/or your recent performance on that course.

The $8 entry fee includes $1 Ace Pot, one $2 Mulligan (to TX States fund), and $5 goes back to payout. Payout will be top 40% of finishers.

The travelling ace pot stands at $57. This is a fund raiser for next year's Texas States (http://www.texasstates.org/) so please come out and show your support.

Tee time is 6:00 PM.

Nice turnout this week with 12 players including many players new to the SW H/C Mini. The Erickson/Payne Home (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2687) course can be challenging the first time you play. The handicapping system worked well as we had the top eight players all within about five strokes.

Thanks to Marcus &amp; Steve for hosting us, and thanks to all the players for supporting TX States.

Next week (July 1) we're back at QVCC-the LINKS (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2576) so bring your floaters and/or a lot of confidence and show that course what you're made of!

Here are yesterday's results:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/handicap_mini_080624.jpg

And here are the new Local Player Ratings for that course:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/handicap_mini_ep_080624.jpg

This week (July 1) we're back at QVCC-the LINKS (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2576) so bring your floaters and/or a lot of confidence and show that course what you're made of!

I've been slaving over a hot computer tweaking the handicap system to be as fair as possible to everybody. The latest system includes two improvements:<ul type="square"> There's now an adjustment for score/rating "compression (http://www.pdga.com/competition/ratings/WhatIsCompression.pdf)" based on how difficult the course is.
A player's rating for the purposes of handicaps now averages in their PDGA rating, SW area rating and Local Course rating with the Local rating counting double. (This is similar to how the PDGA double counts your most recent 25% rounds in your official PDGA Player Rating.)[/list]Quail Valley Country Club has been acquired by the City of Missouri City. No final decisions regarding the future of the disc golf course have been made at this time. But for now the disc golf course is open and playable.

The Mini this week will use the non-greens-fees $ formula:
The $8 entry fee includes $1 Ace Pot, one $2 Mulligan (to TX States fund), and $5 goes back to payout. Payout will be top 40% of finishers.

No golf carts available for rent.

The travelling ace pot stands at $69. This is a fund raiser for next year's Texas States so please come out and show your support.

Tee time is 6:00 PM.

Results are in from this week's SW Handicap Mini at QVCC-the LINKS (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2576).

C.J. threw a great round to take the top spot! And Jenn just beat out Neal to claim second for the week.

Next week we're headed back to Imperial Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2561). Hope to see you out there.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/handicap_mini_080701.jpg

Bump for this week's Mini at Imperial Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2561). 6:00pm start time.

Congrats to C.J. on another great round. This young man is coming up fast, look out everyone!

Thanks to everyone who came out to support the Mini.

Results:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/ejubin/handicap_mini_080708.jpg

Next week (7/15) we're headed back to local favorite: Mo.City Community Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=938).

Also, now that the new HFDS message board is up and running, I'll be back to posting results on it: http://www.hfds.org/vbull/showthread.php?t=5