This years Am Nationals is a perfect example of the problem that happens when you let people bounce back and forth from Pro to Am.
Consider this, Daemon Stahlin, rated 974, has won 3 Am events this year and came in second 4 times out of 9 events--one he didn't finish. This is following a year when he played 22 Open events, taking cash in 5 of them (not a single Am event that year). The year before(06), he played 2 Open events, winning one and taking third in the other. The same year he played 17 Am events, taking 2nd at Am Nationals, 4 first place finishes, and six other top 5 finishes. Mark Roberts, be it Master (which doesn't mean anything), has played 26 Open events the last few years. A couple of other guys at Am Nationals have played pro, just not to that extent. Even the one year I went to am Nationals there were people who had played Open a lot, just not "accepted cash."
My point---how is this supposed to promote people to move up the ranks? If you can play with the big boys all year, and hang with them, just to then come back down a step to crush the Amateurs, what is the PDGA gaining from this. Keeping some Pros playing because they feel they can win now? What about having some pride that you are a PROFESSIONAL, which entails letting Amateurs compete against Amateurs. I recommend if you have a rating 971 and higher or have competed in more than 3 Open events in a calander year you are not eligable for any Major Amateur events that year. No more playing all year as an Open player and then playing a major Am event.

I have no problem with the AMs playing who have played up but declined the cash because they are still Amatuers.

Don't try to discourage the higher Ams from testing themselves in MPO. Heck I played 5-6 MPO events my last AM year before actually accepting.


Now the guys who have accepted aren't AMs in my eyes.

The key words you used were "last year in Am". I did the same, playing a couple of Pro tourneys my last year as an Am, but not year after year after year. 22's a little excessive, don't you think? And then to go back and play a year of Ams, to me is just wrong. I'm also not saying they can't play Am events, just not the majors.

The key words you used were "last year in Am". I did the same, playing a couple of Pro tourneys my last year as an Am, but not year after year after year. 22's a little excessive, don't you think? And then to go back and play a year of Ams, to me is just wrong. I'm also not saying they can't play Am events, just not the majors.




I wonder if they get another shot at ROY? :confused:

:D

I agree with most of what has been said. It sounds like sour-grapes coming from the guy that finished 3rd (and you probably noticed I played in Open events - figure I'll point out those were all trophy only)... but I do have an issue with the PDGA just handing out amnesties like penny candy. I have no issue with Daemon nor Mark, and the fact remains that I lost by my own hand at that event... so I'm not saying "Boo hoo I should have won but those pros were there whine [censored] moan"

I'm just annoyed at the fact that the PDGA obviously doesn't give a **** about this issue when in reality it holds some measure of importance. There should be a well defined line between what an open division player is and what an amateur is. As it is now it is hellamurky. This needs some measure of sorting out. I don't mind the existence of the possibility of amnesty. A local named Ryan Toth cashed for $50.00 in 10 Open events between August 06 and November 07 and his rating at the end of last year was only 932... since his amnesty he's played okay in Advanced (and regained some enjoyment of the game it seems). Some people need the possibility for amnesty.

But the fact that apparently anybody can get it? That's annoying and frustrating.

I completley agree with your post. There are players like Ryan that deserve to be let into the Am rankings again. We have many out here that tried the Open run and ended up donating thru it all. If you cash once or twice out of 30 Open tourneys then it's understandable to want amnesty, but for the PDGA to allow people to play all year, take numerous top tens and cash, and still compete for a major Am title is rediculous! There needs to be a firm rule dictating where the line is drawn...not just a rating that changes every three months.

I'm fine with the amnesty rule so long as there are strict guidelines as to whether or not a person can take the amnesty. I believe if you're a Pro and are rated 971+ and have accepted $500 or more in a single year, as well as played in so many Open events then you shouldnt be allowed to take the amnesty at all. You've proven you can cash, and if you keep playing Open then it means you still want to be pro.

But be careful here guys. People on this board dont like it when you complain about legit issues concerning this organization. They dont like us uppity folk.

Has anyone rated higher than Mark Roberts taken the amnesty? Has anyone rated higher than Daemon Stahlin reacquired his amateur status by means other than taking the amnesty?

It should be simple.

IF YOU HAVE CASHED AS A PRO, FOR ANY REASON, AND AT ANY TIME, YOU ARE NO LONGER ELIGIBLE TO PLAY AS AN AMATEUR IN A MAJOR.

I would go as far as to say in an A Tier as well. It's an unfair advantage, and to compete at the top levels, you are no longer merely into it for the "fun", you wan to win something big.

Gotta let true ams enjoy playing against true ams at our biggest events. AMnesty should be for players who have dropped 30 points from their high in my book. If that takes a couple years, that's what it takes. Accepting cash should be treated like it's treated in all sorts of other sports. We have weakened our amateur clout by allowing anyone to jump ship.

i agree- i believe that when amnesty was offered at least one 1000+ player from nc took it to save the $20 in membership fee.

i don't believe anyone should ever be forced to "turn Pro" however i do believe that the decision should hold some weight once it is made.

Golfers playing for thousands of dollars worth of plastic and prizes should not be classified as Amateurs, either. :confused:

Yes, I went there. :D

Separate from this issue is the fact that our national Pro and Am championships shouldn't be held at the same location every year. But we are forced to do it for economic reasons. Any surprise Michigan (& nearby) has dominated in Am Nats top 5 every year?

Separate from this issue is the fact that our national Pro and Am championships shouldn't be held at the same location every year. But we are forced to do it for economic reasons. Any surprise Michigan (& nearby) has dominated in Am Nats top 5 every year?



You cant compare Tobaggan to Winthrop Gold as far as Champ venues.

Being a "local" at Tobaggan is a definate advantage...

Not so much with Winthrop... :p

It would be nice to see the Am Champs rotate a little...

USDGC......NOT!

Maybe 3 or 4 venues that are in different regions of the country :D

Actually, continuing to play the US Championship at Winthrop is less fair considering the money at stake and the fact that no Am is ever in a position to win the Am Nats twice since the winners traditionally move on to pro. The Winthrop tournamet would be better named as a Major like the Masters in ball golf that is always at the same venue. It could still be a big time event, just not the US Championship. Both Innova and Discraft do great jobs underwriting the costs and providing staffing which is conveniently located nearby which is the primary reason these events don't rotate like most other sports. I can't think of one sport that has their US Championship at the same location every year. Anyone know of one?

why should that matter? we are not any other sport - this is disc golf, it is different, and we should be proud of that - its good to build upon the good things that other sports do, but constantly comparing us to other sports for no real reason is kinda stupid...

how is playing the US Championship at Winthrop every year less fair? I don't see locals winning it, or even coming close - there is no disadvantage for anybody good enough to win the USDGC

why should that matter? we are not any other sport - this is disc golf, it is different, and we should be proud of that - its good to build upon the good things that other sports do, but constantly comparing us to other sports for no real reason is kinda stupid...

how is playing the US Championship at Winthrop every year less fair? I don't see locals winning it, or even coming close - there is no disadvantage for anybody good enough to win the USDGC




You mean other than they may not be left handed? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

how is playing the US Championship at Winthrop every year less fair?


Don't you think some people play certain courses or terrain better than others? Don't you think there are differences playing at higher altitudes, with more elevation or more trees? But then again, since only three players have ever won the USDGC and they are also the only ones to ever have the highest rating, it must mean that Winthrop does a good job correlating with the highest rated players, all sponsored by Innova.

College baseball's national championships are ALWAYS in Omaha, Nebraska.

College baseball's national championships are ALWAYS in Omaha, Nebraska.



Little League World Series.

The U.S. Open (tennis, not golf)

Those are OK but how about where the playing fields in the sport are always different (baseball, sort of 'yes') AND an individual sport not played in head-to-head matches (tennis, 'no').

I'd say as long as Winthrop Gold continues to be the trend setter for all major tournaments (it seems to be the tournament everyone says you just have to go to), then there is no reason to worry about what any other sport does

We are all pleased and grateful they do what they and will hopefully continue to do so at the high level they do. But in fairness, it shouldn't continue as the US Championship indefinitely, and I believe they recognize that. But no other business entity either has or wants to commit the resources to step up and support it in the same way for staffing and finances. That's currently the state of economics at the highest levels in our sport.

Those are OK but how about where the playing fields in the sport are always different (baseball, sort of 'yes') AND an individual sport not played in head-to-head matches (tennis, 'no').



How many sports are there that meet those requirements?
Do they even have national championships ?

but where I think we disagree is your only basis (that you have voiced) for your opinion that it shouldn't remain the US championship is because of what other sports do?

I can't think of one sport that has their US Championship at the same location every year. Anyone know of one?



not exactly the same thing but a great comparison in my mind due to other factors but I think of the Olympic Track & Field Trials in Eugene, Oregon.

There would never be a thought of moving it anywhere else... Eugene is 'track town USA'... its where Pre ran and where Nike is king. Its kind of like Winthrop where you have the event in Innova's backyard in an area that is a hotbed/mecca of disc golf. I'll be in Eugene on Fri/Sat and it will be great to be on 'hallowed' running ground and I like to think people feel the same for disc golf when they get a chance to visit Winthrop/Charlotte area. If the event traveled a lot of that feeling would be lost.

The event shouldn't travel, shouldn't change other than getting better as it has each year. Just the name should travel eventually. It's more like the Masters than what a US Championship should become.

I kinda get what Chuck is saying and agree, but disagree at the same time. If we're going to call it the US Championships then the tournament should be moved year after year to showcase the courses the US has to offer, but at the same time Winthrop is synanomous with the US Championship, and it's hard to break tradition, esp. since all the big pros love playing the course.

It's a completely theoretical discussion since it doesn't appear anyone is lobbying to change the status quo on this.

On the original topic, other than the general amnesty going into 2007, I don't believe very many pros have been approved to move back to am over the years. Those that petitioned and were approved hadn't cashed in several years or the amount was small. If Daemon had such a good Open record in 2007 and was reverted prior to 2008, I'm not sure how that got thru unless policies have changed.

I'm looking at Stahlin's Open record for 07, and after 22 events with 5 cashes for a whopping $365, IMO it was a good move for him to take amnesty. Had he cashed in say 15 of these events for over $1000 then I could see the OP's point, but I must disagree with him over letting Stahlin play the Am Nats.

Amnesty was a one time deal going into 2007. Anyone who switched after that like Daemon (or before that) had to petition and get it approved. The average member cashes a little over 2 out of 5 events with pros a little less since the rating range is wider. Using 2/5, he would be expected to cash 8 or 9 times on average. But as a rookie, 5 would not be unexpected and reason to petition regardless of the dollar amount won. Not sure what the criteria is or should be but Gentry, Chapman and/or Duke approved the switch back.

Cashed 5 times in 22 events... Who said moving up to Pro was easy? It may take you years before you figure out how to compete against pros. But it's not that a person like Daemon gets better to cash more, he just has to get smarter and tougher. My guess is, he's got the game to compete at that level. Just because you don't dominate in Pro is no reason to jump ship. If he were injured, sure, but just not cashing "enough" is no reason to get amnesty. You need to tough it out before you get the game to cash consistently, and even then, it's all about the conditions, your condition, those around you, etc, etc.

Oh yeah, one day tournaments don't do a whole lot for your pro game. one round where you are battling with people you are evenly matched against is not enough to give you lots of experiences for the future. I know that's the way in the upper midwest... play more 2 day tournaments. It's better for your game.

Probably Gentry approved the regain of amateur status. I don't remember doing it, and I've not been Competition Director since September 2006, and only the Tour Manager has that authority now. Gary Duke wouldn't have that authority as chairperson of the Comp Committee. The amnesty program in 2007 was something Gentry and Bellinger cooked up. I had no input or influence on that program, good or bad.

Chap

But be careful here guys. People on this board dont like it when you complain about legit issues concerning this organization. They dont like us uppity folk.


you really seem to have a knack for shooting yourself in the foot in the majority of your posts, often with a single sentence such as the one quoted above.

But be careful here guys. People on this board dont like it when you complain about legit issues concerning this organization. They dont like us uppity folk.


you really seem to have a knack for shooting yourself in the foot in the majority of your posts, often with a single sentence such as the one quoted above.



How about we not make the conversation about me like the last thread. That's how things get out of hand. Move on please.

Golfers playing for thousands of dollars worth of plastic and prizes should not be classified as Amateurs, either. :confused:

Yes, I went there. :D



Yea, what he said.

If you assume that merch and cash are really the same thing at the end of the day:

I don't see a difference between what the PDGA calls pro and am other than pro is harder and you have to pay more.

and you don't have to sell your merch on ebay, duh Esdubya! Playing pro obviously saves you time middlemaning things so you can practice more.

the crying on this thread is offensive, they both played within the rules, albiet not the best rules, so stop crying and move on with your life

the crying on this thread is offensive, they both played within the rules, albiet not the best rules, so stop crying and move on with your life




Wow a guy from Michigan defending the Ex Pros. I bet if a guy from TX won it all the Michigan guys would be up in arms.

I would bee impressed if Texas could pull one off on our home turf...

I would bee impressed if Texas could pull one off on our home turf...



Me too considering we might have one guy go a year. :oHow many Michigan guys are attending? Its ok we have a monopoly on Am world dubs.

But it's not that a person like Daemon gets better to cash more, he just has to get smarter and tougher.



Yeah, man up daemon. Stop being a [censored]!

the crying on this thread is offensive, they both played within the rules, albiet not the best rules, so stop crying and move on with your life




Wow a guy from Michigan defending the Ex Pros. I bet if a guy from TX won it all the Michigan guys would be up in arms.



its withing the rules and its already happened, i just fail to see the point to keep talking about this, the dude from ohio who took 3rd doesnt have a problem with it, why should you?

and look at the winners in the past years, not everyone from michigan wins every year, we only get the course for a week or two more then everyone else

and look at the winners in the past years, not everyone from michigan wins every year, we only get the course for a week or two more then everyone else




Just saying the field has a few more MI golfers than anywhere else.

oh for sure, its great to have the tobagon in our backyard

oh for sure, its great to have the tobagon in our backyard




As well as a million one day events where a 970+ rated pro should have a chance to cash.

If you're jealous, move.

I can't think of one sport that has their US Championship at the same location every year. Anyone know of one?



Softball holds its men's and women's championships in Oklahoma City every year.

Kayaking and whitewater canoeing hold their national championships in Charlotte every year.

The National Spelling Bee is in Washington, DC., every year.

There's three..and I'm sure there are more.

Venues and facilities have been developed by interested parties for many sports and the national tournaments return there by long term contract or tradition, because it's the right place to hold it. Our sport's fallacious economic model makes it difficult to find qualified and appropriate places to hold a World Championship.

Even with the potential gem of the IDGC, we aren't in a position to hold a World's there, yet, since the closest hotels are 20+ miles away, as well as restaurants, meeting facilities, and other amenities. Nice place, but not ready.

oh for sure, its great to have the tobagon in our backyard




As well as a million one day events where a 970+ rated pro should have a chance to cash.



yes but only in MI can the winner of Am Nats play 1000+ plus golf the next weekend and not cash.....

I can't think of one sport that has their US Championship at the same location every year. Anyone know of one?



Softball holds its men's and women's championships in Oklahoma City every year.

Kayaking and whitewater canoeing hold their national championships in Charlotte every year.

The National Spelling Bee is in Washington, DC., every year.

There's three..and I'm sure there are more.

Venues and facilities have been developed by interested parties for many sports and the national tournaments return there by long term contract or tradition, because it's the right place to hold it. Our sport's fallacious economic model makes it difficult to find qualified and appropriate places to hold a World Championship.

Even with the potential gem of the IDGC, we aren't in a position to hold a World's there, yet, since the closest hotels are 20+ miles away, as well as restaurants, meeting facilities, and other amenities. Nice place, but not ready.



US Open Tennis, too. Isn't it in the same NY venue, year after year?

Myself, I'd like to see some rotation of the championships, eventually. Maybe TX is ripe for the Am Nats some year, and the Worlds Dbls event could be in MI.

Joe

Related to this, is there a point where a person should be required to move up to Pro? perhaps 1000+ rated based on playing X number of rated rounds?

It seems like a simpler way to do AM/PRO status is just to minimize the effect of the name distinction by hosting more ratings-based tourneys. Or perhaps trying a rating-based Supertour/A-Tier.

[QUOTE]
the crying on this thread is offensive, they both played within the rules, albiet not the best rules, so stop crying and move on with your life



its withing the rules and its already happened, i just fail to see the point to keep talking about this, the dude from ohio who took 3rd doesnt have a problem with it, why should you?



The whole point of this DISCUSSION board is to talk about issues that people are concerned with. If you don't want to read it, then don't, and move on with your life.

If we never talk about it, it never gets changed.

My whole point was, besides if you take cash your a pro, that you shouldn't be allowed to practice with Open players ALL YEAR LONG and then go crush the Amateurs. If you want to play with the pros, do it during casual rounds, not tourneys. Playing Open prepairs you for tournament play much more than Am tourneys.

Yeah and most AMs don't miss cash in an A-tier by 1 stroke. Kind of proves that he still is Pro Caliber.


Ok so I have a legit question about this. Will he have another shot at Rookie of the year?

Ok so I have a legit question about this. Will he have another shot at Rookie of the year?



Maybe if he had some game.

sure why not that would be right on par with some of the decisions made by body :confused:

Will he have another shot at Rookie of the year?



Nope, you can only be a rookie once.

Chap

good stuff, I'll throw my 2 cents in for what its worth.....I like high rated ams in adv am fields, they have the pressure to win (plastic, etc), and I like competing with them, you think pride would take over after a while??? If you take cash in any PDGA sanctioned event.... you are a pro, I don't care about their ratings. I disagree with the amnesty decision......I would rather see the PDGA spend their time on aggressively going after cash sponsors (Best Buy/Camping World/Target), TV coverage, etc.. More cash for pro purses should allow TD's to pay further down and encourage border line pros to step up.

BG will step up if you want us to host the US Ams, USDGC or the Worlds here........8 courses within 20 minutes of each other with plenty of hotels and camping in between, we would like to see the BG Ams 09 become more than an A tier....

thanks

How many spectators did you draw for BG Open? That's the key. You get spectators and the sponsor money will follow. It doesn't work the other way around unless you stumble on a corporate angel.

Next Am Worlds available is 2012 with bids for that next year at the earliest. Talk with Discraft about Am Nats possibilities for the future. How about checking with Houck about Am World Dubs? That's the same time of year as BG Ams.

Thanks for the feedback Chuck, I enjoy your posts. I disagree about sponsor money following if we get spectators.....you need sponsor money in advance to secure TV ads, Radio spots, and pay some talent to market and execute...... maybe it's time to take a fresh look at the goals and objectives of the PDGA? I just voted:)

thanks

I feel it's mostly wasted money if there aren't spectators. I believe money spent to assist the pros could best be spent doing whatever it takes to learn how to attract spectators if that's possible. It's the only way to develop sustainability for higher purses. If it works, that's great. If it doesn't, we accept that this is still an exploding, fun participation sport, currently not one for spectators and build from there. Maybe they'll emerge when we have 5 times the numbers we have now.

How does one gain spectators without advertising first though? Josh and I dont agree on alot of things, but I must side with him on this issue. Sponsors who pay good money are going to make sure their ads are seen and heard by the public. Word of mouth wont always work, and so someone has to be proactive and aggressive in gaining sponsors. If the PDGA made a marketing committee or something of the like dedicated to calling up the big businesses then I firmly believe in a year or two we could see our sport take off in ways we couldnt imagine. You cant always rely on the disc golf public themselves. Some players simply do not care about the growth of the sport. They just want to play, and if the PDGA will realize this then so much more can be done.

I copy and pasted this off some website I found. Maybe this will help the PDGA to organize 1st how they'll approach potential corporate sponsors...

There are four factors that most corporations will consider when asked for sponsorship $$:
1. Do you have the right demographic?
2. Is the opportunity relavent to the sponsor's needs?
3. What is the value ROI. Ask the sponsor how they plan to evaluate their ROI.
4. What does the sponsor want? Face-to-face with potential customers? Brands in hands? Brand boosting?

Most sponsors could care less about a structured sponsorship level chart. Don't offer them gold, silver, bronze levels. Ask them what they need. For national and global corporations like Coke, logo and branding hits at local-level events is not important.

Sponsors want exclusivity, they want to barter, offer to share any contact databases you have with them.

To get buy in from media:
-Will your event appeal to readers/listeners/viewers?
-Does it fall within the publication's/station's area of interest/theme?
-At what level will you offer exclusivity?
-Is there an opportunity for prominent logo display?
-Can you offer quality tickets to the event?
-Are there any opporunities for unique giveaways?
-will there be any meet and greet sessions?
-Can you allow the on-air personalities to host or MC the event?

It is essential that you maintain open lines of communication with your sponsors before, during and after the event.

Before:
Send a brief letter that bullet points your key sponsorship opportunities. Follow up with a phone call, or personal visit. Do not offer specific levels to corporate sponsors, customize a package for them.

During:
Ensure that your sponsor has all they need during the event, if get them coffee, food, make sure they are taken care of and happy.

After:
Sit down with them after and have them critique their experience so you can improve your offering next time.

If you want to grow the sport put courses in the ground.

it takes me 15 years of selling to learn that stuff, and you google it in 10 minutes:).....having radio/tv ads offering prizes for attendance to the big events is what gets spectators to come out.......

best buy would be perfect demographic, store everywhere, ipods/laptops/gps/phones, paying ams out in best buy bucks, you get the picture, heck they could even have a small section in each store to sell discs, and remind kids they can still play outside.

and back to my point, more sponsor dollars = deeper payouts for pros = more top am players wanting to play pro = more spectators = TV coverage

thanks

With the disc golf video game coming out on Wii supposedly, why hasnt the PDGA been aggressive in getting Nintendo to sponsor one of the majors?? They obviously know what disc golf is, and if they are able to market the game correctly to score a profit they'll no doubt invest in real life disc golf so they can enhance the next disc golf game and make it bigger and better.

What do you have to sell them?

What do you have to sell them?



Lots of Wii disc golfer will buy when the game comes our and if they grow the sport through it they also produce more customers.

Exactly! Let Nintendo set up demos of the Wii disc golf game at say the USDGC. People will eat that up, and it will definitely boost sales of the game, and console if people really want to play it.

where will most people buy the wii's and games?

yep, best buy, corporate office in Minn., and isn't Minn. in the top 5 for most courses in US. Minn. folk are into healthy lifestyles also......... if you need help, let me know.

thanks

Exactly! Let Nintendo set up demos of the Wii disc golf game at say the USDGC. People will eat that up, and it will definitely boost sales of the game, and console if people really want to play it.




There are a lot of golfers who would go out and buy the console for the DG and end up buying a few more.

Exactly! Let Nintendo set up demos of the Wii disc golf game at say the USDGC. People will eat that up, and it will definitely boost sales of the game, and console if people really want to play it.




There are a lot of golfers who would go out and buy the console for the DG and end up buying a few more.



I prefer the X-Box myself, but would have no problem considering an investment in the Wii if I could play disc golf on it.

As somebody who owns all 3 systems I am going to remaim cautiously optimistic about this game. I have seen some really good games on the Wii and I have also played some of the worst games in 10 years on this system.

Exactly! Let Nintendo set up demos of the Wii disc golf game at say the USDGC. People will eat that up, and it will definitely boost sales of the game, and console if people really want to play it.




There are a lot of golfers who would go out and buy the console for the DG and end up buying a few more.



I prefer the X-Box myself, but would have no problem considering an investment in the Wii if I could play disc golf on it.



Yeah I like the 360 too but if they have a DG game that is good I will get the Wii.

best buy makes money from selling wii's and games, not to mention the dozen other things they sell that disc golf players use Let them promote it, they have stores near most major cities where disc golf events are held.......

I can see it now.....Best Buy Worlds with everybody wearing a blue best buy collar shirt:)

thanks

best buy makes money from selling wii's and games, not to mention the dozen other things they sell that disc golf players use Let them promote it, they have stores near most major cities where disc golf events are held.......

I can see it now.....Best Buy Worlds with everybody wearing a blue best buy collar shirt:)

thanks



Best Buy is also perfect because they only sponsor not-for-profit organizations like the PDGA. Like all corporations its about getting their name and brand out to the consumer, and no corporation will pass up the opportunity to advertise to potential demographics. They would eventually begin sponsoring players to wear their logo's and the pros would be out in full force with their logo's on their shirts because they'll be getting PAID!!!

I have contacted best buy on behalf of the bg club, but the national leverage the pdga could bring to the table with some big hitters........now we're talking!

best buy makes money from selling wii's and games, not to mention the dozen other things they sell that disc golf players use


Hellooooo laser rangefinder!

The number of disc golfers is miniscule and insignificant to potential sponsors. It extremely doubtful that a company would sink substantial money into ads for TV on the theory that hundreds of thousands of non-disc-golfers would tune in to watch. In the meantime, our biggest events draw fewer spectators than a junior-high basketball game, and most events are lucky to draw an audience of 10. Even disc golfers rarely go to watch disc golf.

Left out of the sponsorship treatise above is advertisers want to know how many eyes/ears their message will reach.

I don't see any way to get there, except through grassroots growth to the point that there are millions of disc golfers. I personally doubt if, no matter what is done, disc golf will ever reach major sponsorship or media or money.

Of course, I'd be delighted to be proven wrong. I believe the PDGA already has someone working on major sponsorships. Wouldn't it be great of some of its members who believe the PDGA can generate major sponsorship and know how to do it, would contact that person and volunteer their time and expertise?

Wouldn't it be great of some of its members who believe the PDGA can generate major sponsorship and know how to do it, would contact that person and volunteer their time and expertise?



Why would they do that? It is far easier to sit behind a keyboard and direct traffic in cyberspace without having to do any real work in the real world. Just Google It and send someone else do the work.

It is so easy. Simply make a phone call to THE corporate VP or department that controls the billion dollar advertising budget for your average Fortune 500 company. There is no need for a business suit or a face to face meeting. John Duesler just needs to send a Power Point or simply call their 800 number and ask for the money. After all, these huge corporations are just itching to give us money, all we have to do is ask for it!!

Wow, Sarcasm and Cynicism from Discette. Are we seeing a new Discette, or a tired, fed-up one? :D

With the disc golf video game coming out on Wii supposedly, why hasnt the PDGA been aggressive in getting Nintendo to sponsor one of the majors?? They obviously know what disc golf is, and if they are able to market the game correctly to score a profit they'll no doubt invest in real life disc golf so they can enhance the next disc golf game and make it bigger and better.



I'm not quite sure how it works, but I believe the disc golf game is being created by a third party developer in Sacramento, not Nintendo. As to what collaboration there is between this company and Nintendo, I don't know.

Wouldn't it be great of some of its members who believe the PDGA can generate major sponsorship and know how to do it, would contact that person and volunteer their time and expertise?



Why would they do that? It is far easier to sit behind a keyboard and direct traffic in cyberspace without having to do any real work in the real world. Just Google It and send someone else do the work.

It is so easy. Simply make a phone call to THE corporate VP or department that controls the billion dollar advertising budget for your average Fortune 500 company. There is no need for a business suit or a face to face meeting. John Duesler just needs to send a Power Point or simply call their 800 number and ask for the money. After all, these huge corporations are just itching to give us money, all we have to do is ask for it!!



At least there are a few of us on here who are offering suggestions, and are wanting to see these issues dealt with instead of taking the cynical and pessimistic road you are apparently adopting.

For BG Ams, we're getting sponsors from around the country. If a local club can gain national sponsors for a tournament, then why cant the PDGA, a worldwide organization get any?

Not enough to sell. You are naive if you don't think the PDGA and various contractors along the way haven't tried very hard to do what you're asking over many, many years. They've been told what we're telling you. Typically, it's along the lines of "come back when you have 10,000+ guaranteed eyeballs or have a TV contract because 10,000+ people would be watching." Brian Graham was recently told we could get a single half hour show on one of the ESPN channels for $50K minimum and that doesn't include the cost of shooting and producing the show.

Dan Stork Roddick has been in this game longer than some of you have been alive. As Wham-O Promotions Director in the 70s they had challenges getting sponsors when they had 50,000 people in the Rose Bowl for Wham-O Frisbee events and later the Junior Worlds thru the 80s and into early 90s which involved tens of thousands of kids. Disc golf isn't even close to that and those were barebones requirements for sponsorship even then. Dan has basically said you have to keep asking every so often cause you might get lucky like the lottery with a CEO that gets hooked on the sport. But you don't commit extensive resources to try when you don't yet have the product, numbers or scenario the sponsors and/or media want.

You are naive if you don't think the PDGA and various contractors along the way haven't tried very hard to do what you're asking over many, many years.



My point exactly, but apparently my attempt at sarcasm is lost here. I am not a cynic but a realist.

BTW, do you have that 800 number for the Best Buy Sponsorship Department? I am willing to offer my help by stepping up and making the call.

I think someone in India might answer...

You are naive if you don't think the PDGA and various contractors along the way haven't tried very hard to do what you're asking over many, many years.



My point exactly, but apparently my attempt at sarcasm is lost here. I am not a cynic but a realist.

BTW, do you have that 800 number for the Best Buy Sponsorship Department? I am willing to offer my help by stepping up and making the call.


Here's the link (http://209.68.13.147/community_relations/index.htm).
Here's the phone number (http://209.68.13.147/contact_us/) . Sorry, its not "800" toll free. But they do have an e-mail. Let us know what you find out.

Best Buy:
"As a Company, and through our Foundation, we work with nonprofit organizations to support programs that provide opportunities for youth. Our goal is to provide positive experiences that will help them to excel in school, engage in their communities, and develop leadership skills."
Sounds like exactly what you are looking for Suzette as it matches the efforts of the PDGA quite well.

I don't believe the PDGA is a non-profit that would qualify but our Disc Golf Foundation would: www.discgolffoundation.net/mission.html (http://www.discgolffoundation.net/mission.html)

we would like to see the BG Ams 09 become more than an A tier....

thanks

Then you oughtto run it like something better than a C-tier fundraiser for the following week's pro event.

we would like to see the BG Ams 09 become more than an A tier....

thanks

Then you oughtto run it like something better than a C-tier fundraiser for the following week's pro event.



Ouch!

we would like to see the BG Ams 09 become more than an A tier....

thanks

Then you oughtto run it like something better than a C-tier fundraiser for the following week's pro event.



So offended I'm not even gonna say anything.

chuck, i have a question that is probaly asked several times a day by disc golfers. how many years do u think it would take to get disc golf big enough to where u can make a cut and cash out very well? i know there are several variables to make this happen, like, sponsors,spectators,etc. but u, knowing more than most about this kinda stuff, would you give a guestimate on what u think would be a realistic future of disc golf. the reason im askin is b/c i obviously hope it gets huge, but i want to be realistic also. thx

I'd like to think it will happen someday, but I'm skeptical. I'm not sure how we get there other than hard work and building the number of players to ten times the size we have now. None of the pieces needed to attract big sponsorship are currently in place, spectators being a big piece of that equation.

I look at other sports like softball which is successful as an amateur sport that's much bigger than DG. The only time people watch that is when Jennie Finch is pitching for the US at the Olympics a few times every four years. Orienteering is about the size of DG and is done in more countries. They have no pro level competition and use designed courses like we do. DG and Orienteering would be expensive to capture on video live and in a way that would be compelling to watch. It's impossible to get really good numbers of spectators on some of our coolest holes thru the woods to watch, even if we had the people. I think more DG players will watch well edited video clips, stories and DVDs which is a positive sign. The response to the game for the Nintendo Wii will be interesting to watch and is another plus.

There's one X-factor that has a chance to launch us into the public eye and generate money faster that has worked in a few other sports. And that's either creating or finding a compelling individual that carries the sport on their shoulders like Tony Hawk or Tiger Woods or Shaun White. Look at the press that Michael Phelps is getting for swimming. And yet, I don't think he's like those other three. Once the Olympics is over, as huge as swimming is all over the world, it doesn't draw the spectators or produce the sponsor money like some other sports with charismatic or compelling stars that are just as big or even smaller than swimming. Jennie Finch gets added press for softball during the Olympics because she's hot in addition to her amazing pitching skills. But she doesn't really seek the limelight at other times even though she was on the Apprentice. She kind of looked uncomfortable in that more high profile role.

I would love it if it was easier than it's going to be for raising money. I've been out there knocking on doors and seeking sponsorship various times over 20 years. But I'm not going to blow smoke that it's looking up for pros. What has been solid year after year is our amateur growth. I'm not sure why that bugs people. We can get as big as softball. Most of us will never be as good as Climo and can still have as much fun as we know this sport provides. So I'm wildly optimistic for the amateur side of the sport. The pro side hasn't been there, isn't there now and no one knows whether the huge increase in amateur play will spur more pro sponsorship. If it does then great. If it doesn't then it's still great for 99.9% of players including all of those 100s of thousands who haven't discovered it yet.

I'm going to go back to the original topic for a sec as this is something I've been thinking about.

I'm rated 910 and I've cashed in three events this year - in Europe. My best round in any of those tournaments was 931.

931 is probably not going to cash in the States. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The problem for me is that as long as I live in Europe and play there, I'll probably continue to play pro - often there is no amateur division offered. (I know, I could just refuse the cash. But, let's ignore that option for now.)

However, this also means I will probably not play another sanctioned event in the US as I'm just not good enough to play pro here.

What would you do in my situation?

Take advantage of the fact you can play Am in the U.S. in Intermediate or Advanced. You should visit more often. :cool:

The only time people watch that is when Jennie Lynch is pitching for the US at the Olympics a few times every four years.



Sorry for picking nits, but do you mean Jennie Finch? If so, I know for a fact that her brother Landon is a disc golfer. I played with him in the Glenwood Springs-Eagle Open in 2004. We finished one-two with me finally catching him in the final round for my first tourney win ever. Really nice guy as I remember...

nanook

Sorry, I'll fix that. See how well she's known when I can't get the name right :eek:?

SwitzerDan, what chuck is saying is, under the current format pros rated less than 970 can play advanced at NTs, A-tiers, B-tiers and C-tiers, but not Majors. Pros rated less than 935 can play Advanced Master, too.

The only time people watch that is when Jennie Lynch is pitching for the US at the Olympics a few times every four years.



Sorry for picking nits, but do you mean Jennie Finch? If so, I know for a fact that her brother Landon is a disc golfer. I played with him in the Glenwood Springs-Eagle Open in 2004. We finished one-two with me finally catching him in the final round for my first tourney win ever. Really nice guy as I remember...

nanook


Clearly he needs to get Jenny into the sport, the more female faces we have the better (not saying the current females aren't what we want, just saying we need sheer numbers!).

My thought on where this sport is going, growth wise, is at best we become a minor sport in the public eye. I could see somebody on an X-Games level picking up a disc, deciding he enjoys it, and finding time to squeeze it in as one of those events that gets the late night run (like the skateboarding street best trick event where everyone does a call in to determine the winner). Thats where I see the sport winding up, at best.

I wish I was more optimistic about it, but in terms of mainstream popularity it will grow in general acceptance as a sport but I don't see the sport ever getting a ton of spectators. Some of the best courses are too wooded, and just not convenient for spectators. With ball golf you can stand off outside the rough and see the fairways. Hey Chuck, how many spectators do you think should hang out off the fairways on Woodland Bear? Haha, any good sight lines 50 feet off the fairway?

Hey Chuck, how many spectators do you think should hang out off the fairways on Woodland Bear? Haha, any good sight lines 50 feet off the fairway?


Having the basket elevated in the triple trees makes it much more visible for spectators... :D

SwitzerDan, what chuck is saying is, under the current format pros rated less than 970 can play advanced at NTs, A-tiers, B-tiers and C-tiers, but not Majors. Pros rated less than 935 can play Advanced Master, too.



I did not know that. But, since I've cashed in Europe this season (my first cash!), I'll still have to register as a pro next year, won't I?

I have to agree with the original post. If you cash you are Pro end of story! However, I would like to see amnesty given to players who as they age can no longer compete, or players that have suffered through a major injury be allowed to compete as an am again. Most major sports do this, Pro players being sent to the minors all the time.

Also though Minor league players of most sports get paid in CASH, not a new glove, new hockey stick, new football, or shoes. CASH. It would be nice to be able to cash out in all am divisions. However, if that were to happen ratings would need to be updated daily and players forced to play in the correct division. People not a member of the PDGA would be forced to obtain a membership in order to join a tournament rather then just oh here is $10 let me in. Also once your rating moves you up a tier you must play in that tier or higher unless a major injury befall you. This should attract many more people to play in tournaments rather then just casually. I know of many people that just stopped playing or caring about tournaments because they were not good enough to be pro and yet they could get all the plastic they never wanted. Also then B-tiers and above would not have to worry about players packs and rather put the cash toward fees and payouts to pay down another spot or two. This would force players to get better or just donate their money (as we are doing now)

As for players and spectators; There are so many people that play this game and it is only growing everyday. I cannot even get on a course without being jammed up nowdays. However, believe it or not most of them don't know the tour schedule. 80% don't even pay attention to signs annoucing local events. Yet still everyday I play a course I hear people saying imagine if they had tournaments or something. To which I am like actually they do and give them to rundown. Stamping PDGA APPROVED onto discs doesn't mean anything to the casual player. I know due to word of mouth just in my area we have had about a 50-75% growth in our league tournouts of people who have never played before in an organized event this year alone. We have even started recruiting kids 12 and under to play in our doubles leagues. You want spectators make it worth while to watch. People have a tendency to play harder longer when there is something to lose rather then just a rating or trophy.

I did not know that. But, since I've cashed in Europe this season (my first cash!), I'll still have to register as a pro next year, won't I?


Yes, but at least in the states and wherever there's an Advanced division for you, if your rating stays under 970, you can play Am if you choose.

I drew Daemon as my doubles partner yesterday and he said he can't wait to play Am World's and mop up the competition.

I drew Daemon as my doubles partner yesterday and he said he can't wait to play Am World's and mop up the competition.


Why not? If he was allowed to play one Am Major why not another?

I just voted Daemon for BoD.

I drew Daemon as my doubles partner yesterday and he said he can't wait to play Am World's and mop up the competition.


Why not? If he was allowed to play one Am Major why not another?


Can anyone with the PDGA answer this? Is this some kind of way for them to say "We were WRONG." without actually ever stating it?

They've kind of made their bad, having let him play Am Nationals. They weren't just wrong about Daemon. There was another guy that took $40 cash playing pro in February. If that was a mistake on the tour stats, they have not bothered to correct it.

I don't care because I got beat by 5 or 6 or 55 more players than just the current and former pros. And you should not care because Mark Roberts got his am status back fair and square on the amnesty, and he beat you. Mark is the only one with a beef, and one pro is not going to beef about another pro beating him at Am Nationals!

If this were the PDGA before you voted away your rights, you could ask to see Daemon's petition for the restoration of his amateur status, and they would have to let you see it. Ask Mr Chris "I'm for openness but I vote against it every time" Bellinger if you can get a copy and see where that gets you!

They've kind of made their bad, having let him play Am Nationals. They weren't just wrong about Daemon. There was another guy that took $40 cash playing pro in February. If that was a mistake on the tour stats, they have not bothered to correct it.

I don't care because I got beat by 5 or 6 or 55 more players than just the current and former pros. And you should not care because Mark Roberts got his am status back fair and square on the amnesty, and he beat you. Mark is the only one with a beef, and one pro is not going to beef about another pro beating him at Am Nationals!

If this were the PDGA before you voted away your rights, you could ask to see Daemon's petition for the restoration of his amateur status, and they would have to let you see it. Ask Mr Chris "I'm for openness but I vote against it every time" Bellinger if you can get a copy and see where that gets you!


Please note that I am not complaining about Daemon Stahlin or Mark Roberts. They both did what they were allowed to do, played great tournaments, and BEAT ME FAIR AND SQUARE. I will never deny this. What I'm annoyed by is the inconsistency on the part of the PDGA, which is pretty much doing nothing more than frustrating me on every level from this issue through to tournament directors I know getting their TD packets in the mail on the day of their tournament after complaining about not having received it weeks before, and repeatedly.

I honestly can not wait until I have the "respectability" years down the road to run for the board and try to enact some change from the inside, assuming someone else hasn't done it in the time between. I know the PDGA has done a lot for this sport, but right now I feel nothing but completely frustrated by almost every decision I hear about.

Woj- who said he couldn't play? It doesn't look to me like anyone said anything about him not being allowed to play Worlds.

And I'm tired of you posting about the whole Daemon/Roberts beating you thing.

At least two of us on the CompCom have asked Gentry and Graham to look into the situation for clarification of what happened.

Woj- who said he couldn't play? It doesn't look to me like anyone said anything about him not being allowed to play Worlds.

And I'm tired of you posting about the whole Daemon/Roberts beating you thing.


Go cry about it. Look through my history and see how many posts about this you find by me. I responded to the controversy immediately following the tournament, and this is the second time I've responded to controversy concerning it since that point in time (most of all this on topic and in this thread. Go pretend you know what you're talking about somewhere else.

Now, if you wanted to sound like someone who had any clue what he was typing you'd have laughed at me for being an idiot and completely misreading a post earlier in this thread. I did mess up in my earlier post, it was posted that he "can't wait to play Am World's" as opposed to what I misread as "can't play Am World's" Feel free to mock me for a valid reason, not for things your silly little mind makes up.

I drew Daemon as my doubles partner yesterday and he said he can't wait to play Am World's and mop up the competition.


what up Sarah?? Tell Daemon he will not be the only bagger at worlds
Big Germ (http://pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=33705&year=2008)
would suck if he wasted all that time and still lost in the am division. oh well theres always bowling green 2009.

Were all of those dollar prizes shown in Open during 2008 just the value of merch he received? If any of those were cash, he can't play Advanced at Worlds unless he applied for amnesty recently?

I drew Daemon as my doubles partner yesterday and he said he can't wait to play Am World's and mop up the competition.


what up Sarah?? Tell Daemon he will not be the only bagger at worlds
Big Germ (http://pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=33705&year=2008)
would suck if he wasted all that time and still lost in the am division. oh well theres always bowling green 2009.




Yeah Daemon will get mopped up by the AMs this time. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

all of those dollar prizes 08 just the value of merch he received?

Obviously

I drew Daemon as my doubles partner yesterday and he said he can't wait to play Am World's and mop up the competition.


what up Sarah?? Tell Daemon he will not be the only bagger at worlds
Big Germ (http://pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=33705&year=2008)
would suck if he wasted all that time and still lost in the am division. oh well theres always bowling green 2009.




Yeah Daemon will get mopped up by the AMs this time. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


LOL

Disclaimer:
i don't know Stahlin and i am sure he is a great guy and a good golfer. just stirrin things up and haven fun

I drew Daemon as my doubles partner yesterday and he said he can't wait to play Am World's and mop up the competition.


what up Sarah?? Tell Daemon he will not be the only bagger at worlds
Big Germ (http://pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=33705&year=2008)
would suck if he wasted all that time and still lost in the am division. oh well theres always bowling green 2009.


Thats a lot of merch.

i have met both of them and they both seem like fine guys- koling is one of the most talented players i have ever seen.

also in Germs defense he is the perfect example of what happens to a guy with a ton of natural ability and blosoms really fast. he started playing disc golf around 2 or 3 years ago (played ultimate for a long time) was a decent golfer in 2007 but has been playin steady and his game just caught fire this year. he wanted to go to worlds from the get go this year but was winning everything around N.C. so he decided do move up and dcline until he could go to worlds this August. Kid is like 22 years old 6'10" with a freak of an arm and the smoothest forehand i have ever seen. he will make the final 9 this year and he will move up to pro after that. he will never play AM again.

Sounds similar to Timmy Gill's story when he won Am Worlds in 1995. He hardly throws forehand any more due to wear and tear over the years but his 350+ forehand killed the Am competition in Cincy that year only 2 years after he started playing in Minnesota.

I heard Daemon is in for the Am Worlds fo sho and he said he's a WORLD BEATER!

In this corner... wearing the white shorts, representing Jerms Koling... Big Wave Dave!

and in this corner... wearing the red shorts and sunglasses, representing Daemon Stahlin... janttila!

Let the trash talk begin!

I heard Daemon is in for the Am Worlds fo sho and he said he's a WORLD BEATER!


i would hope he wins. he's playin amatuer after already proving he can play at the pro level. i am not hear to blow germ up or diss stahlin but anyone who is talking trash for stahlin winning an am tournament is laughable at best. the kid has been playin for years and his game is hot. i would hope any cashin pro could compete and win against amatuers.

[censored] off with your sofa units and strine green stripe patterns, I say never be complete, I say stop being perfect, I say let... lets evolve, let the chips fall where they may.

I heard Daemon is in for the Am Worlds fo sho and he said he's a WORLD BEATER!


i would hope he wins. he's playin amatuer after already proving he can play at the pro level. i am not hear to blow germ up or diss stahlin but anyone who is talking trash for stahlin winning an am tournament is laughable at best. the kid has been playin for years and his game is hot. i would hope any cashin pro could compete and win against amatuers.



Looks like isguy is sharp and won't bite on the bull [censored]. Funny thread just the same. We should keep it rolling....

Jantilla,
you sound like a funny dude. hope you are going to worlds. that is what i look forward to most is meeting message board users. no sarcasim meant!

Well, I gotta tell you: I'd be very, very careful who you talk to about that, because the person who wrote that... is dangerous.

I'll bee jammin out at Worlds for a couple of days. As long as Dowd has room for my tent in his yard.....

Nice Jantilla. why you so dangerous?

Not me. Tyler Dyrden.

also in Germs defense he is the perfect example of what happens to a guy with a ton of natural ability and blosoms really fast. he started playing disc golf around 2 or 3 years ago (played ultimate for a long time) was a decent golfer in 2007 but has been playin steady and his game just caught fire this year. he wanted to go to worlds from the get go this year but was winning everything around N.C. so he decided do move up and dcline until he could go to worlds this August. Kid is like 22 years old 6'10" with a freak of an arm and the smoothest forehand i have ever seen. he will make the final 9 this year and he will move up to pro after that. he will never play AM again.



I appreciate the props big wave, you are my home boy- two things: im not quite 6'10 (like, at all) - im 6'6. i picked up a disc for the first time in may 2006 so ive been playing for about two years (minus the 5 months that i was in school at app state- no disc golf in boone). i cannot wait til august. its been my main focus all year and cant wait to get out there. im hungry for worlds... im shootin to bring the title back to nc

wow whats 4 inches when you are a foot taller than me :D it's hard to see that high and i am old and maybe a little senile. 2006 to 2008 is like 2 or 3 years right?

Make sure to go campin with the Anttilanator some time... It's best when you have the entire campground to yourselves, some company, and enough beverages to bring down a horse!

And then you can end up like Peter Middlecamp. Won AM Worlds, but couldn't hang in there as a pro (for whatever reason). Now getting press as one of the top baristas in the USA.

I sense a new book coming out....From Frisbees to Lattes in One Easy Lesson.

also in Germs defense he is the perfect example of what happens to a guy with a ton of natural ability and blosoms really fast. he started playing disc golf around 2 or 3 years ago (played ultimate for a long time) was a decent golfer in 2007 but has been playin steady and his game just caught fire this year. he wanted to go to worlds from the get go this year but was winning everything around N.C. so he decided do move up and dcline until he could go to worlds this August. Kid is like 22 years old 6'10" with a freak of an arm and the smoothest forehand i have ever seen. he will make the final 9 this year and he will move up to pro after that. he will never play AM again.



I appreciate the props big wave, you are my home boy- two things: im not quite 6'10 (like, at all) - im 6'6. i picked up a disc for the first time in may 2006 so ive been playing for about two years (minus the 5 months that i was in school at app state- no disc golf in boone). i cannot wait til august. its been my main focus all year and cant wait to get out there. im hungry for worlds... im shootin to bring the title back to nc



Noone declines cash anymore. Every event i played this year, I saw ams play open, and accept cash.

I drew Daemon as my doubles partner yesterday and he said he can't wait to play Am World's and mop up the competition.



And I'll bet he's unsuccessful.

Chap

Sounds similar to Timmy Gill's story when he won Am Worlds in 1995. He hardly throws forehand any more due to wear and tear over the years but his 350+ forehand killed the Am competition in Cincy that year only 2 years after he started playing in Minnesota.



He spent some of that time in Kansas City, too. :)

And then you can end up like Peter Middlecamp. Won AM Worlds, but couldn't hang in there as a pro (for whatever reason). Now getting press as one of the top baristas in the USA.

I sense a new book coming out....From Frisbees to Lattes in One Easy Lesson.



Middlecamp won Am Nationals, not Am Worlds.

Chap

And then you can end up like Peter Middlecamp. Won AM Worlds, but couldn't hang in there as a pro (for whatever reason).


He did win Rookie of the Year though for his pro 2004 season so that's not too shabby.

And then you can end up like Peter Middlecamp. Won AM Worlds, but couldn't hang in there as a pro (for whatever reason). Now getting press as one of the top baristas in the USA.

I sense a new book coming out....From Frisbees to Lattes in One Easy Lesson.



Middlecamp won Am Nationals, not Am Worlds.

Chap



c'mon Chap,

Chuck said it therefore it was right.

Hey Chuck would you mind posting I have a 1040 rating? I would like for that to happen. :D

Chuck said it therefore it was right.


The only post I made about Middlecamp was on his thread in the Player section. Lyksett mistakenly posted that Middlecamp won Am Worlds.

Chuck said it therefore it was right.


The only post I made about Middlecamp was on his thread in the Player section. Lyksett mistakenly posted that Middlecamp won Am Worlds.




Chuck is wrong it was Chap. I said it therefore it is right

i don't know Stahlin and i am sure he is a great guy and a good golfer. just stirrin things up and haven fun



Don't be so sure...I know him. Good golfer, yes.

mmmmuuuuuuaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhaaaaahhhhhaaaaahahhh

Make sure to go campin with the Anttilanator some time... It's best when you have the entire campground to yourselves, some company, and enough beverages to bring down a horse!



One of the best camping trips ever! It was the [censored]! And to have a 9 hole right on the site was even cooler. we need to plan that again. Is Stahlin the pick to win Am Worlds?

he's not my pick

Tate or this Big Jerm fella are my picks.

I bet both will be in the finals, hopefully the finals will be as exciting as last year.

Top 4 maybe.

Is Stahlin the pick to win Am Worlds?



Since he is not registered I am going to go out on a limb and say no. :cool:

Must bee a glitch. Told me he registered weeks ago...

Weeks ago should be there... Plus he is signed up to play open this weekend too. You sure?

I know D is registered and pumped up to play the Championship in October. Maybe that's what JA is remembering...

Joe

Jeremy wins hands down as long as he doesn't let emotions take over. Good luck Jeremy, Im rooting for ya....

Hands down??? Are we betting a disc on this?

I travelled this weekend with Stahlin. He told me he was going to OWN the Worlds after he turned down ca$h.

I'm going to stick with what I've been saying since the last round at Disc 'n Dat: Tate is going to tear it up.

Tate was on FIRE this weekend.

Im not sure if you have ever seen Jeremy play but if you did then you would know what I mean....can throw 400+ sidearm or backhand with accuracy and can make putts when it counts.

If Jeremy doesn't win worlds I bet that Jeremy will beat Daemon!!!

i pick daemon, he is way to offensive not to win.

plus i want to hear mtl cry some more.

Ive got a feeling this worlds is going to look alot like the 04 Am Worlds. (JJ takes it in a land slide) Im not even from North Carolina but I got a feeling North Carolina takes it home.

It's got to be daemon. He may bee the only pdga member with a life time ban from the MB. Offensive moth.......

I guess we will all have to watch and see...I know who my money is on

Just look at the stats between Koling and Stahlin.....enough said

Just look at the stats between Koling and Stahlin.....enough said



Yea but Koling isn't an SI Face in the Crowd (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/scorecard/faces/2008/08/04/)

It should've said "Daemon Stahlin, former and future disc golf professional, dropped down to win the US Amateur Disc Golf Championship....."

way cool! i believe either juliana or des was in it too at one point. vegan ray as well.

Im not sure if you have ever seen Jeremy play but if you did then you would know what I mean....can throw 400+ sidearm or backhand with accuracy and can make putts when it counts.

If Jeremy doesn't win worlds I bet that Jeremy will beat Daemon!!!



I've never seen Daemon play, but I have played a few rounds with Jeremy. I'd bet on Jeremy any day. And he was a really nice guy to play with -- he beat himself up occasionally, but he hasn't been playing competitively very long. Glancing at this scores, I'm pretty sure he's at a 995 or 1000 average for 2008. And looking at his throws, his build, his age, his consistency -- especially for how short a time he's been playing -- and regardless of whether he wins or loses at Am Worlds, he should have zero trouble cashing consistently in Pro.

Daemon on the other hand apparently tried pro for a year and a half, cashed a few times, and decided he just couldn't hack it and went back to beating Ams... so he's already shown what he's made of in that department.

Jeremy on the other hand, has been placing in the cash in pro consistently. No question who comes out ahead in the end.

I'm rooting for the nice guy to win, so I hope Jeremy takes down the field. When you see him play, you'll see why. Barring injury or burnout, I'd place money he'll be on the lead card at the USDGC sometime in the next five years. Just a sick, sick, sick player -- just needs a little more experience under him to consistently destroy the field.

Why all the hate for Daemon? Said he's not only local at the Boggan but he shreds the Worlds course just the same. And if you've never met him, how do know he's not a nice guy? I'd say that's on the line of a personal attack....

Why all the hate for Daemon? Said he's not only local at the Boggan but he shreds the Worlds course just the same. And if you've never met him, how do know he's not a nice guy? I'd say that's on the line of a personal attack....




He never said he wasn't nice and maybe everyone is hating on him because he is so enthused to move back to AM so he can beat the REAL AMS. Big Jerm is a Pro waiting for this event to move up which makes me choose him over the guy who couldn't hang in Pro so moved down for another shot.

Daemon on the other hand apparently tried pro for a year and a half, cashed a few times, and decided he just couldn't hack it and went back to beating Ams... so he's already shown what he's made of in that department.

brilliant analysis ...

You sir are offensive!

I hope no one took anything I said to be derogatory towards Daemon. I've never met him and have nothing against him.

However, since the discussion is about favorites for which player will win Am Worlds, I think an honest look at player histories is completely relevant.

When Jeremy is averaging close to 1000 for the year, hasn't been competing long, and keeps staying in the cash at the pro level, that shows he's got the skill to battle with the best pros out there. Odds go to him as a pick for Am Worlds.

Some players just don't have the potential to be consistently competitive at the pro level. They may truly be 940-980 players, and that may be where they max out for life. In the current structure, that's the most awkward place to be ratings-wise.

It appears from the last few years of player histories that Daemon falls into this limbo category for now unless he makes some kind of major shift in his game. He's played ~20 events per year for several years and played at the pro level for most of those, and hasn't cashed often, and never cashed at a high level. No shame in that either.

This reflects back to one of the biggest debates/challenges/discussions at this time in our sport: what makes a pro and should we be able to force people to play pro?

940+ ams have the challenge of being ragged on for consistently winning/placing at AM1, or donating their money up to the pros if they play up. They also have the problem that fees go up $10-50 per tournament when they move up to pro, along with PDGA dues being higher. It costs a lot more and they win a lot less -- it's just bad math to play up for most folks unless they really think they have a chance at becoming competitive pros. Or they don't mind donating for the experience of playing with some top folks.

I'm sure there are many players out there who simply can't afford to play up to pro, or playing up to pro would mean having to reduce their tournament schedule by ~20 percent to keep the economics balanced -- which is a hard thing to do if you love the thrill of competition.

I'm another player in limbo, and since I can't make it to am worlds, I'm moving up to pro and seeing how it goes. Who knows, in two years, my tournament record might look like Daemon's -- lots of pro tourneys and very little cash.

I think it's a great thing that the PDGA has allowed pros below a certain ratings threshold to compete in Am again. I think for big tournaments, this is how it should go. If you've got an a-tier, it should be perfectly okay for all the big dogs to fight it out at the top, and for the scruffier <970 players to fight it out with the top ams. That makes the game the most competitive it can be, and that's where most people have the most fun.

I think the problem people have with Daemon -- and I understand this sentiment -- is that he went from cashing in pro to winning one of the top Am-only tournaments. I think for other tourneys, playing down is fine, but for your USAms and WorldAms, it really should be AM ONLY. The fact that he played at all left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths -- that he won made it even worse.

Admittedly, a lot of the responsibility remains with the PDGA for a system that allows/encourages this to happen. If what the PDGA really wants is a tournament for <970 rated players to battle it out, they should say so... of course, then, Jeremy wouldn't be allowed to compete because he's gotten too good too fast. But that's a whole different issue.

At every other Am ratings break, the system is very clean -- at a certain rating, you HAVE TO play up. With Advanced/Pro the line is fuzzy, varies from place to place, and is illogical in many respects. But that's the way it is for now.

I think at some point in the future -- when there are more people seriously playing disc golf -- you will have to earn the right to play pro, just like with virtually every other sport. If you can't achieve a 980+ rating, you won't be allowed to sign up for pro. I also think that Pro divisions will have more added cash, be higher stakes, and that people will work hard to move up to pro as a rite of passage. It will be a mark of honor rather than a dubious, peer-pressured hole-in-your-wallet to move up.

So back on topic: no offense to Daemon; I just think Jeremy's gonna kick his little hiney at Am Worlds. :D

It appears from the last few years of player histories that Daemon falls into this limbo category for now unless he makes some kind of major shift in his game. He's played ~20 events per year for several years and played at the pro level for most of those

with the exception of last year he has played a total of 6 open events..

Why all the hate for Daemon? Said he's not only local at the Boggan but he shreds the Worlds course just the same. And if you've never met him, how do know he's not a nice guy? I'd say that's on the line of a personal attack....



Please tell me you're kidding!

and I'll 2nd, 3rd, 4th... whatever we're on now. Jeremy is a strong favorite for Am Worlds. Daemon will not beat him... the only way he doesnt win is if he beats himself. He knows he's most people's favorite... he knows he can/should win and I'm sure thats a lot of pressure.

Jeremy plays his first 2 events of thisyear as an am (both on blind courses) and wins both by a total of 20 strokes... then proceeds to step up to Pro and places top 10 in all 9 or 10 events played (including some pretty big A tiers vs tough opponents) w/ i believe 3 or 4 outright wins.

He's the real deal

You guys keep talking about Daemon versus Jeremy. Daemon is still not showing on the registered player's list. There has been a wait list for Advanced since July 22. Does anyone know if Daemon is on the wait list or just not showing on the current registration?

Don't let facts interfere with this discussion! :D

You guys keep talking about Daemon versus Jeremy. Daemon is still not showing on the registered player's list. There has been a wait list for Advanced since July 22. Does anyone know if Daemon is on the wait list or just not showing on the current registration?



He is also listed as cashing last weekend as well. Of course, he could have taken merch...

It's going to be really funny if neither of them win and everyone that is in the habit of making outrageous claims doesn't post for a while.

that is some true gangsta hating sir. with regards to the too much time on ones hands i typed it in word first post above. daemon told me that when he doesn't cash, or play well that its on purpose. he enjoys the mind game. its amazing. told me earlier today that he will leave the bloodied corpses of all who challenge his dominance on the courses of west michigan. its true.

that is some true gangsta hating sir. with regards to the too much time on ones hands i typed it in word first post above. daemon told me that when he doesn't cash, or play well that its on purpose. he enjoys the mind game. its amazing. told me earlier today that he will leave the bloodied corpses of all who challenge his dominance on the courses of west michigan. its true.



You mean like the Michigan Pros bloodied him up?

You guys keep talking about Daemon versus Jeremy. Daemon is still not showing on the registered player's list. There has been a wait list for Advanced since July 22. Does anyone know if Daemon is on the wait list or just not showing on the current registration?



Daemon doesn't have to register for tournaments, he is just assumed in unless his assistant calls and cancels. Let the world(s) domination commence!

Like Daemon told me before.....He's a WORLD beater!

I'll gladly take "the field" over Daemon and Jeremy.

why is jerm even playing advanced when he would clearly win open?

daemon told me that when he doesn't cash, or play well that its on purpose. he enjoys the mind game.


If he did that when he was a pro then that is rather stupid to lose money on purpose. Must be a Wolverine fan to want to lose on purpose.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9033/oandninefj9us5.jpg

i told you its not stupid. its like a jedi mind trick. think outside the box.

It's going to be really funny if neither of them win and everyone that is in the habit of making outrageous claims doesn't post for a while.



That kind of cause-&-effect just doesn't happen here.

And I heard he bagged his rating intentionally in '07 to pull it off....

parked every hole with his devilhawk.

Which pool is he playing in?

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7275

Or maybe he is playing Pro?

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7276

I'm pretty sure he stated he was going to WIN the AMATUER World Championships. He's most likely in the Elitist pool....

I don't think Daemon will win, but Charles Schwab has a good chance I think.

when Charles Schwab talks people listen!

when Charles Schwab talks people listen!



Don't worry brother, you didn't get my joke. But I know Daemon

So how can he win when he isn't even signed up... am I missing something here? I know the devilhawk flies true but he can't win if he can't play.

So how can he win when he isn't even signed up... am I missing something here? I know the devilhawk flies true but he can't win if he can't play.



and here we have the paradox... if he doesn't play he also can't lose

hmmm...

think there should be a cut-off rating in advances divisions. The winner has an 986 rating, some of the TOURING pros have that rating and some of the other top pros have that rating. The cutoff should be 935 for advanced, above that and you should be required to play pro.

935 are you kidding? You wanna put me with Feldberg and Doss when my rating hits 935? Maybe you meant 975....

935 pro = expensive rounds!

The thing is, you wouldn't necessarily be competing with Feldberg. I'm not in favor of this, just playing devil's advocate here... but... If you have everyone over that level playing Open you're left with a far deeper field. The cash line would drop precipitously, way down, allowing cashing opportunities for lower rated competitors.

Thats one reason I kept trying to convince Advanced guys around here to play Open, they say they can't cash... but if they all jumped up they could. Easily. Thankfully Worlds is over now and all of those baggers are going to be moving their asses up a division.


-Chris.

Thankfully Worlds is over now and all of those baggers are going to be moving their asses up a division.


-Chris.



New year, new baggers :D

Thankfully Worlds is over now and all of those baggers are going to be moving their asses up a division.


-Chris.



New year, new baggers :D


But most of them will be in Kansas City :) There are always some, but never more than in the general area of a World Championship ;)

The thing is, you wouldn't necessarily be competing with Feldberg. I'm not in favor of this, just playing devil's advocate here... but... If you have everyone over that level playing Open you're left with a far deeper field. The cash line would drop precipitously, way down, allowing cashing opportunities for lower rated competitors.

Thats one reason I kept trying to convince Advanced guys around here to play Open, they say they can't cash... but if they all jumped up they could. Easily. Thankfully Worlds is over now and all of those baggers are going to be moving their asses up a division.


-Chris.



Which is based on the idea that the 935-950 players will continue to play there after repeatedly getting whupped on.

When they leave, how long will the 950-975 players hang around?