This sport is great. I love it and always will. But I hate that a portion of the entry fee that I pay as an am goes to pro payout. Ams make up what.. 75% of this organization? Yet we always get shafted for the pros benefit. And what about tourneys where first place gets enormous payout while third gets next to nothing. I have been playing for almost 20 years and have been a member of the PDGA for over 10. I have seen no real push to encourage lesser players to stay in this sport. I have turned many people on to disc golf who will never join the PDGA because of this. They go to one event and see all the baggers who play down so they can win and they decide that it just isn't worth it. I think that the PDGA should start a "minor leage" for those players who will never reach pro status. Pro should compete for their own money not a cut of am fees as well. This would alow deeper payouts in the am divisions and ensure the growth of this sport with players who don't get fed up with business as usual.

Hey Buddy I just started running my own tournaments in Austin, Texas. I did this so me and all my friends would get 100% of their entry fees worth. The Open division plays for their own cash. The money isn't ever moved around. I don't know what tourney's you have been playing and who has been running them but that just isn't right.

I encourage you to take the TD test and host your own. Its easy to run a C tier and play. This way you can handle the money.

BTW- I do like your AM division idea. If this was to roll out then the ratings barrier would have to go up and we could make it 20$ for non members!

Super D

Well, as I tell people...

If you don't like the format of the tournaments that are being run in your area run your own in the format that you think that people want. :)

Minimum payouts of 45% and the proportional amounts to be paid for Am divisions are provided for PDGA sanctioned events. Likewise, bagging shouldn't happen if TDs are following procedures for placing players in divisions including not allowing non-members to play in lower divisions. If these aren't being followed locally, it's a local issue to get corrected. The primary recourse the PDGA has is to not allow non-compliant TDs to sanction another event.

With regard to Am profits getting shifted to pros, many TDs are not keeping what they are allowed to keep for their efforts to run the event. If they actually did this, then Am payouts wouldn't be any higher. Pro payouts would just be lower. As it is right now, just assume that your Am retail/wholesale differential is paying the TD and the TD has elected not to keep your payment and add it to the pro purse AND chooses not to keep anything from the pro entry fees. Why? I can't tell you why this hasn't changed.

Yeah, I don't know why clubs/TDs making some money it is a "bad" thing. I try to make all the money that I can for our club while trying to make sure that the players get their value for their entry fees.

What percentage of your Am entry fees are going to the Pro purse, anyway?

C-tiers are required to pay back 85% of Am entry fees to Ams; B-tiers, 100%. That's just actual players packages and payouts, and does not the value of having a tournament to play in to begin with.

Some TDs or clubs may use their net gain from the retail/wholesale handling and sales of discs to donate to the pro purse, as we do, but that's their money and their decision. Ams have been paid back at 100%, or close to it.

How would a "minor league" differ from our current intermediate, recreation, or novice divisions with 100% payback, anyway?

---A lifetime Am.

I am a TD and I always pay 50% of the field except for women and juniors which I pay deeper. I never keep any cash from any event that I run. I buy the food that I serve on my farm during X-tier events and ask for donations but never break even. A minor league would enable lesser players to compete against people at their skill level not Joe Pro who has a rating that lets him play down. The same goes for adv that play int. Due to illness I could play rec but would that be fair to them cosidering I have playing for 19+ years? I know the current system well enough. I have been a TD for many years and have even had the privelidge to run one of the 50 richest events one year (thanks to lots of good people helping).

Still think it should be mandatory for non members to be forced to play advance. Then at least it will be competitive and the Rec/Int won't be disappointed. Look at some of the scores in various tnmts, alot of non members play down to win. No rating, play advance.

Mini Thumber

I am a TD and I always pay 50% of the field except for women and juniors which I pay deeper. I never keep any cash from any event that I run. I buy the food that I serve on my farm during X-tier events and ask for donations but never break even. A minor league would enable lesser players to compete against people at their skill level not Joe Pro who has a rating that lets him play down. The same goes for adv that play int. Due to illness I could play rec but would that be fair to them cosidering I have playing for 19+ years? I know the current system well enough. I have been a TD for many years and have even had the privelidge to run one of the 50 richest events one year (thanks to lots of good people helping).




We have these things called ratings that keep the ADV players out of Int.

If anything I think we need a Professional association.

I am a TD and I always pay 50% of the field except for women and juniors which I pay deeper. I never keep any cash from any event that I run. I buy the food that I serve on my farm during X-tier events and ask for donations but never break even. A minor league would enable lesser players to compete against people at their skill level not Joe Pro who has a rating that lets him play down. The same goes for adv that play int. Due to illness I could play rec but would that be fair to them cosidering I have playing for 19+ years? I know the current system well enough. I have been a TD for many years and have even had the privelidge to run one of the 50 richest events one year (thanks to lots of good people helping).



Why don't you think that you deserve to at least break even? Obviously it is a personal choice but, I would have no problem at all if you were my TD and put on a great & fun event if at the end of the day you had a few of my dollars in your pocket. ;)

I am a TD and I always pay 50% of the field except for women and juniors which I pay deeper. I never keep any cash from any event that I run. I buy the food that I serve on my farm during X-tier events and ask for donations but never break even. A minor league would enable lesser players to compete against people at their skill level not Joe Pro who has a rating that lets him play down. The same goes for adv that play int. Due to illness I could play rec but would that be fair to them cosidering I have playing for 19+ years? I know the current system well enough. I have been a TD for many years and have even had the privelidge to run one of the 50 richest events one year (thanks to lots of good people helping).




We have these things called ratings that keep the ADV players out of Int.

If anything I think we need a Professional association.



Do you really think that without the backs of the Amatuers to be supported upon such a thing could really exist? I think that both groups should appreciate the other and not look at what the other has and covet it.

I am a TD and I always pay 50% of the field except for women and juniors which I pay deeper. I never keep any cash from any event that I run. I buy the food that I serve on my farm during X-tier events and ask for donations but never break even. A minor league would enable lesser players to compete against people at their skill level not Joe Pro who has a rating that lets him play down. The same goes for adv that play int. Due to illness I could play rec but would that be fair to them cosidering I have playing for 19+ years? I know the current system well enough. I have been a TD for many years and have even had the privelidge to run one of the 50 richest events one year (thanks to lots of good people helping).




We have these things called ratings that keep the ADV players out of Int.

If anything I think we need a Professional association.



Do you really think that without the backs of the Amatuers to be supported upon such a thing could really exist? I think that both groups should appreciate the other and not look at what the other has and covet it.



Well we should change the name then.

Still think it should be mandatory for non members to be forced to play advance. Then at least it will be competitive and the Rec/Int won't be disappointed. Look at some of the scores in various tnmts, alot of non members play down to win. No rating, play advance.

Mini Thumber


that, or keep those players in 'flux', playing with the lowest division and THEN assign their division after the first round (or two) based on their score(s). I agree that something needs done for this inequity, because it gives many good players plenty of reason to avoid joining the PDGA which means they never get a rating and can continue to 'bully' lesser players for an easy win.

Still think it should be mandatory for non members to be forced to play advance. Then at least it will be competitive and the Rec/Int won't be disappointed. Look at some of the scores in various tnmts, alot of non members play down to win. No rating, play advance.

Mini Thumber


that, or keep those players in 'flux', playing with the lowest division and THEN assign their division after the first round (or two) based on their score(s). I agree that something needs done for this inequity, because it gives many good players plenty of reason to avoid joining the PDGA which means they never get a rating and can continue to 'bully' lesser players for an easy win.



Its up to the TD

I am so sick of people whining about players not playing up. Who cares! Play what your rating says, or play up. It doesn't matter. If you are sick of being beaten play down to what your rating says or don't play. Or play up and you'll probably find within no time you are playing up to that level anyway. What a bunch of whiners. We should have ...
Open
Am
thats it.

I agree. That trick should only work once...

After that the TD should assign the correct division from a non-PDGA member.

As for the name, I don't see a profesional division. I do see an Open division, a division that is open for all that wish to play it. Now, some people may choose call those players professionals. I quite frankly try to not use that term, I try to use the term for the division that they are playing. Without a doubt they are the best players in the sport, I am not trying to belittle that. I just see very little difference between "amateurs" (which most are not true amateurs) or "professionals" (which most are not true professionals). The names of these two groups are the center of some of the greatest debates on this message board and we would all be better off without those terms being thrown around. To me the PDGA is an oganization for all players no matter the skill level.

Name change-no. Restructuring-maybe. The current ratings are the problem.

This sport is great. I love it and always will. But I hate that a portion of the entry fee that I pay as an am goes to pro payout. Ams make up what.. 75% of this organization? Yet we always get shafted for the pros benefit.



Ams getting shafted. Now that is real spin. Chuck, this is what our coddling payout system has created: an entitled class. Real sportsmen, who embrace the fact that rewards should increase as your skill level increases, are discouraged. You don't build a sport by discouraging those types, you build an entrenched entitlement class..a voting bloc who will never want to give up what they got.

This topic reminds me of the last guy that tried to start an amatuer disc golf association. He chose a very poor advertising tactic, get shreded apart by the message bored wolves, then I never heard about it again...

Now where would you pros be without our am dues?

Name change-no. Restructuring-maybe. The current ratings are the problem.



Call me obtuse, but how are the current ratings the problem?

Now where would you pros be without our am dues?



Basically where we are today: playing for our own money. Most pros don't win jack, yet they still play when they can afford it.

Disc golf would be much healthier to have two (male/female) open divisions and two (male/female) am divisions, with the top am players getting trophies. This would cut out the baggers, and encourage TDs to come up with innovative ideas to attract players to play open.

Name change-no. Restructuring-maybe. The current ratings are the problem.



Call me obtuse, but how are the current ratings the problem?



I, too, am a little lost about this. I'm a 915-rated player. I can play Intermediate, and no one more than 20 points better than me can compete against me and take advantage. Nor can I compete against players rated 20 points worse (unless they choose to play above their division).

There are some faults with the current system, but I'm unclear how it's hurting the weaker players by allowing unfair competition.

Real sportsmen, who embrace the fact that rewards should increase as your skill level increases, are discouraged.


This statement is the fallacy. If skill in any human endeavor was rewarded fairly, would athletes make more than rocket scientists or doctors or engineers? It's not the objective valuation of skill that determines reward but what society is willing to pay to see it displayed or utilized. Thus, the reason top teachers get paid less than top entertainers.

As regards disc golf, there are very few outside the sport who care about the skill of disc golfers or watching it. So any argument about increasing rewards for increasing skill is foolish. All that matters is how many people are willing to play each other within a defined skill or age bracket for a particular ante we call an entry fee. And the rewards are simply a result of the numbers who play together plus any reapportionment for skill level the ringmaster TD (otherwise known as "the house" in gambling parlance) decides to do.

Now where would you pros be without our am dues?



Basically where we are today: playing for our own money. Most pros don't win jack, yet they still play when they can afford it.

Disc golf would be much healthier to have two (male/female) open divisions and two (male/female) am divisions, with the top am players getting trophies. This would cut out the baggers, and encourage TDs to come up with innovative ideas to attract players. to play open.



This would effectively do one thing... cause people to not play PDGA events. Why would I travel hours away and spend hundreds of dollars for a chance at a trophy? You would see numbers decline everywhere since AMs wouldn't travel out of their home towns. I don't know about other areas of the country but I know there are enough non-sanctioned events in Ohio that I could play almost every weekend in a tournament and never go to a PDGA event. I go to them because the competition is better, the events have more exposure, and the payouts are usually better. Take one of those away and non-sanctioned events suddenly become a lot more attractive.

I agree we have a lot of divisions now in AM but it encourages lower level players to come out and play in tournaments. Why would a 700 rated person come out to get destroyed by the 965 guy in an AM division. Some people play tournaments for the excitement and social aspect of it. You put a guy in a situation where he has no chance to even be top half and more than likely that guy is going to get tired of coming out to donate.

AMs make up about 75% of the disc golf arena yet it seems like every pro expects us to pay them just to be on the same course as they are... I for one don't agree. If you are playing Open and expecting to make millions, then maybe you should find a new sport. I hear competitive eating is a lucrative activity ;)

Beginners are not encouraged to play at all under the "two divisions" system. Ratings are not working when a player with as much tourney experience as myself is allowed to play rec.(I play adv. masters)

Ratings are not working when a player with as much tourney experience as myself is allowed to play rec.


You make such broad statements as this without facts that support it. Show where players of similar rating but one has 10 more years experience are not fairly matched. If anything, I will always bet on the newer player with the same rating because there's a better chance their rating is lower than their current level of play due to the lag time inherent in the system when someone is improving.

Now where would you pros be without our am dues?



Basically where we are today: playing for our own money. Most pros don't win jack, yet they still play when they can afford it.

Disc golf would be much healthier to have two (male/female) open divisions and two (male/female) am divisions, with the top am players getting trophies. This would cut out the baggers, and encourage TDs to come up with innovative ideas to attract players. to play open.



This would effectively do one thing... cause people to not play PDGA events. Why would I travel hours away and spend hundreds of dollars for a chance at a trophy? You would see numbers decline everywhere since AMs wouldn't travel out of their home towns. I don't know about other areas of the country but I know there are enough non-sanctioned events in Ohio that I could play almost every weekend in a tournament and never go to a PDGA event. I go to them because the competition is better, the events have more exposure, and the payouts are usually better. Take one of those away and non-sanctioned events suddenly become a lot more attractive.

I agree we have a lot of divisions now in AM but it encourages lower level players to come out and play in tournaments. Why would a 700 rated person come out to get destroyed by the 965 guy in an AM division. Some people play tournaments for the excitement and social aspect of it. You put a guy in a situation where he has no chance to even be top half and more than likely that guy is going to get tired of coming out to donate.

AMs make up about 75% of the disc golf arena yet it seems like every pro expects us to pay them just to be on the same course as they are... I for one don't agree. If you are playing Open and expecting to make millions, then maybe you should find a new sport. I hear competitive eating is a lucrative activity ;)




So are you trying to say you only play because of the plastic? If so then you are just proving Mr McCain's point even moreso.

Also if I were you I would never move up becausethe ones who get shafted the most are non sponsored Pros who have to buy plastic with what they win and they don't complain about having to pay the differential in wholesale to retail.

Why would I travel hours away and spend hundreds of dollars for a chance at a trophy?



The spirit of competition, testing yourself, to see and play with friends.

The fact that someone would only compete, in a protected am division, in order to profit, has hampered our sport. It has created a vicious cycle, where these people hang down and create resentment in am divisions, turning off real ams who sense the cushy, greedy arrangement.

The ams who actually embrace the spirit of competition, and there are many, sense that the system is broke. Those with enough skills, turn pro, where they are faced with a cutthroat system that will churn up their pocketbook. Some remain, most leave, leaving the pro ranks stagnant.

The idea that we build a class of pros by building a base of profit-minded ams is a colossal joke. Attracting, rewarding, and thereby retaining the "I will only play am for profit" crowd has changed our demographic to the weenie, everyone must win mentaility that retards us today.

James is free to run 2-level/4-division events, as he proposes. He can probably even sanction them, if he keeps the Am entry fee low enough or the players package high enough to have no merchandise payout. This will demonstrate the economic and competitive superiority of such a system.

On the other hand, Greg is free to run an Amateur-only event. Many are already done. He can sanction it or, if he believes the rating system is defective, go non-sanctioned with the better system he devises. And demonstrate how much better off the Ams are without the Pros.

So are you trying to say you only play because of the plastic? If so then you are just proving Mr McCain's point even moreso.

Also if I were you I would never move up becausethe ones who get shafted the most are non sponsored Pros who have to buy plastic with what they win and they don't complain about having to pay the differential in wholesale to retail.



I don't play just for the plastic but I definitely wouldn't travel 2 hours away for nothing.

I agree that the low level pros have to spend more money than others but that doesn't mean we should have only 1 pro and 1 am division. Then it would just discourage beginning players from trying tournament golf.

The reason that I don't feel bad about the 950+ rated open player that is taking a beating is one simple fact... he could play AM1 and be competitive if he wanted to. That person makes the choice to move to Open and take their beatings.

I don't understand the push to become an open disc golfer... its not like piles of money is going to fall into your lap or you'll become famous and have everything that you could ever want. I don't see the down side to playing AM golf.

Maybe I am missing something..if so please fill me in.

A church, or a government is free to offer assistance to the poor by making them work for it, or by giving it out. Which systems builds a healthier, stronger community?

A society can be set up to reward those who strive to excel, or reward the mediocre as much as those who strive to excel. Which society is stronger?

This whole "you can run those tournies" is a copout for an organization unwilling to honestly scrutinize itself, and propping up bad policies with the argument that they are the most popular.

So are you trying to say you only play because of the plastic? If so then you are just proving Mr McCain's point even moreso.

Also if I were you I would never move up becausethe ones who get shafted the most are non sponsored Pros who have to buy plastic with what they win and they don't complain about having to pay the differential in wholesale to retail.



I don't play just for the plastic but I definitely wouldn't travel 2 hours away for nothing.

I agree that the low level pros have to spend more money than others but that doesn't mean we should have only 1 pro and 1 am division. Then it would just discourage beginning players from trying tournament golf.

The reason that I don't feel bad about the 950+ rated open player that is taking a beating is one simple fact... he could play AM1 and be competitive if he wanted to. That person makes the choice to move to Open and take their beatings.

I don't understand the push to become an open disc golfer... its not like piles of money is going to fall into your lap or you'll become famous and have everything that you could ever want. I don't see the down side to playing AM golf.

Maybe I am missing something..if so please fill me in.



Not talking about the 950 guy I'm talking about the 980 average Pro.

Not talking about the 950 guy I'm talking about the 980 average Pro.



Well I think that C tiers should have an upper ratings cap(1000 might be a good number) to make a forum for the 980 rated player to be competitive but that is a whole other can of worms.

I think that if a 980 rated open player wants to play in an NT event then he has to realize that his odds of cashing are very low.

Not talking about the 950 guy I'm talking about the 980 average Pro.



Well I think that C tiers should have an upper ratings cap(1000 might be a good number) to make a forum for the 980 rated player to be competitive but that is a whole other can of worms.

I think that if a 980 rated open player wants to play in an NT event then he has to realize that his odds of cashing are very low.



If they cash in a B-tier they will cover their entry fee and maybe another $50 then they have to buy discs since they can't win them. Also why cap who can play C-tiers? We have only like 4-6 guys at our local ones with 1 or two of them being 1000 so should we just cut them out?

I would be for eliminating any pro divisions at C-tiers. Only B and A tiers (and higher) require added cash which is the reason pros are pros and not just amateurs playing for cash. It would be another step toward professionalizing the sport and perhaps allow smaller events to pool resources for bigger purses at A & B events.

I would be for eliminating any pro divisions at C-tiers. Only B and A tiers (and higher) require added cash which is the reason pros are pros and not just amateurs playing for cash. It would be another step toward professionalizing the sport and perhaps allow smaller events to pool resources for bigger purses at A & B events.



..which gets back at the original problem of using Amateur events as fund raisers for the Pros.

How would it affect my rating if I played rec, which uses "am" tees instead of the "pro" tees and my score was lower due to that adjustment of divisions.

I meant pooling resources in terms of sponsorship and event support, not getting more money from the Am differential.

How would it affect my rating if I played rec, which uses "am" tees instead of the "pro" tees and my score was lower due to that adjustment of divisions.



No difference. You get rated based on how well you play regardless of the course, that's presuming there are enough players playing those tees (5 propagators) to produce ratings

....propping up bad policies with the argument that they are the most popular.



As opposed to bad policies that a few people want, but most don't?

I agree. That trick should only work once...

After that the TD should assign the correct division from a non-PDGA member.

As for the name, I don't see a profesional division. I do see an Open division, a division that is open for all that wish to play it. Now, some people may choose call those players professionals. I quite frankly try to not use that term, I try to use the term for the division that they are playing. Without a doubt they are the best players in the sport, I am not trying to belittle that. I just see very little difference between "amateurs" (which most are not true amateurs) or "professionals" (which most are not true professionals). The names of these two groups are the center of some of the greatest debates on this message board and we would all be better off without those terms being thrown around. To me the PDGA is an oganization for all players no matter the skill level.



Well said. The PDGA should change ot the USDGA or DGA or something like that.

Maybe we need to revisit the issue and have members vote on changing the name to Players Disc Golf Association as proposed maybe 10 years ago.

I think the name should stay. Although it does confuse my daughter's P.E. teacher when I say that I am a member of the professional organization but I am not a pro. It makes the teacher doubt that I know anything at all about disc golf.

As opposed to bad policies that a few people want, but most don't?



No, it's more like taking the medicine we need, versus drinking beer on the couch, and belching when when our team gets a first down. Most people prefer the latter, some even consider it sporting, but it just makes most of us drunk, fat and lazy.

International Disc Golf Association has a nice ring to it.

encourage TDs to come up with innovative ideas to attract players to play open.


how come it always seems to come down to the TD's job??? I say we get the ASSociation to help with adding $$ instead of taking $$.. I am still not sure what you get out of a sanctioned EVENT other then ratings? :confused:


oh yea BURP :D

Maybe it's b/c I don't play many tournaments and I'm a relatively new PDGA member but...How exactly are ams getting "shafted". Are we talking entry fees, member dues or both? Please elaborate.

Medicine from self-appointed doctors, no doubt.

For what it's worth, I've run a tournament for 5 years with just 2 divisions, Pro & Am. No ratings breaks. No age-protection. Heck, no gender protection. Low fee, relatively low-merch Ams. Modest fee, cash-added Pros. A unique format that seems to be attractive, as our divisions fill or nearly fill each year.

But I'd never want the PDGA to mandate it. I prefer the innovation and variety the free market provides, and majority-rule over minority-rule.

On the other hand, perhaps you and Greg could bring this thread full circle. You could run off everyone who doesn't want to get thrashed by the best players, nor just play for trophies....and that 80% of disc golfers could join Greg's new Amateur Disc Golf Association.

I don't come on here a lot anymore but I still check in every so often sometimes more frequently than at other times. But you know what I honestly believe that if Idon't come back on here for another 6 months I could still find a different thread about this that was fresh during the previous 2 weeks.

This is just my opinion on the situation but I never win plastic or cash so I think that makes me at least somewhat unbiased. The pros need the ams more than the vice versa and almost anyone would agree with that. Just look at the BG open, where do you think that pro purse comes from. I don't really cares where my entry fee goes as long as I have fun but what I don't understand is the "pro" players feeling of entitlement. Why do some "pros" feel that "ams" should get nothing.

I didn't get to go the Lexington Open because it was my 10 year anniversary that weekend but people that came back said that pros were mad at the am payout even though pro payout was better than the previous year from every possible standpoint.

Edit: I personally think the system is fine the way it is now except for non PDGA members playing where they don't belong but I have no suggestion on how to fix it.

Yes, or we can continue the same ole, same ole, where we encourage the entitlement mentality, where we allow, no, entice people to bag down, where, for many in the am class, there is little incentive to get better, where the people with skills and courage face the biggest odds.

Yeah, you can give me copout diversions, or claim that all arguments only reflect the economic interests of the arguer, but you really haven't given a rebuttal, one that persuades, one that shows that our system is intrinsically sporting, healthy, or even productive. You just argue that popularity (as the numbers Chuck commonly brings forth to "prove") must equal success. Keep believing that a people-churning, slowly growing demographic of the am class will one day yield a healthy, thriving sport.

I asked why is there no am assoc. I didn't say I was going to start one. Although I have toyed with the idea before, I think that one organization is a better choice. When I go to a tourney and pay a whopping fee for entry and recieve next to nothing as a players pack for my "donation" to the event I feel I have been shafted. I don't cash very often but I still "play up". When I go to an event and first place gets an enormous payout but third gets 3 discs(not me, I didn't cash) I feel shafted.
Pros get some kind of players pack at my events.

but what I don't understand is the "pro" players feeling of entitlement. Why do some "pros" feel that "ams" should get nothing.



Wow, nice twisting of the word entitlement, or completely discounting the value that performance should be valued.

How about, ams play for trophies, and pros get nothing from ams. There is no entitlement there. That would still be healthier than the present state, and no one could make dubious claims that pros are leeching off ams.

but what I don't understand is the "pro" players feeling of entitlement. Why do some "pros" feel that "ams" should get nothing.



Wow, nice twisting of the word entitlement, or completely discounting the value that performance should be valued.

How about, ams play for trophies, and pros get nothing from ams. There is no entitlement there. That would still be healthier than the present state, and no one could make dubious claims that pros are leeching off ams.



I can't speak for all ams, but as someone that never wins, if say the entry fee was $15 with a single disc players pack or $5-7 with no players pack and trophy only I would be all for it. And when I said a sense of entitlement I wasn't referring to you and I don't mean to imply all pros feel this way. I just can't stand to hear "pros" complain that "ams" should pay $30 get nothing and win nothing just for the opportunity to be at the same players meeting as "pros".

The PDGA is unique and I like it the way it is. The TD's should be allowed to do what it takes to provide a great event and keep our organization moving and growing.

So what if Am's help the Pro's. I myself am sick of winning plastic or script. If I win I end up selling it on ebay anyway. I am playing pro-masters for the fun of it from now on even though I will be donating. I might as well, because my division is being bagged by lifer Adv. Masters or Adv. Players who have 10-15 years of tournament experience and/or who have finally come of age. These guys are 940 to 950+ rated players who could easily compete in PM. At least I have an outside chance of winning some real cash, and know that I am getting what I paid for: Lessons from a Pro...LOL!

I also agree that if you are an un-rated, non-member, you should have to play in advanced. Once you are a rated dues paying member you should be allowed to access whatever division your rating allows for, regardless of experience.

If you look at the Open division, that is the case. The only way you can play in another division is if you can prove your age or your sex. Thats it, end of story. The Am divisions should be the same. If you are not a member, you don't exist as far as protection of ratings go IMO. As far as age, you can show an ID. Sex, well hopefully no one would try to play in the ladies division LOL....

Become a member, get rated, and then you can enjoy the benefits of ratings protection and membership.

I also agree that if you are an un-rated, non-member, you should have to play in advanced.


While in concept this seems simple, in practice there are many locations where the non-members are true newbies. Not only do you run the risk of running them off by getting pounded, but they can drag down the play of Advanced players by not knowing the rules and how to play in tournament mode. In additon, they pay the $10 extra as non-members. I think in most cases the TD, people helping or people entering know the local non-members who are competition savvy from true newbies. TDs just need to make the call and have the "baggers" play Advanced or even Open if they want to play.

I see your point Chuck. Maybe the answer is the idea to flex these players. If they are killing the field after round one, bump them. Problem is that most TD's I know don't take time to fiddle with that stuff in the middle of the event....

Legend�.
I sooooooo agree with you on many different levels when it comes to this subject. However, we really need to look at the big picture & come up with a long-term plan. Change is accepted more readily when there is gradual progression toward the ultimate goal. Let�s start with�� say, doubles divisions of �Pro� or �Not-Pro� the first year ;)....
�.then maybe trophy only for the Rec. divisions the next year�...tack MA2 onto trophy only the year after that�....so on & so on until the goal of having true AM divisions is a reality. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

You could do that, but the payout system is so popular with our players that we'd just run the payout as a sidegame. We offer a fair trophy-only option and not that many lpayers want it.

Beginners are not encouraged to play at all under the "two divisions" system. Ratings are not working when a player with as much tourney experience as myself is allowed to play rec.(I play adv. masters)



I'm not sure I think its all that "unfair" to the other Rec level players. I grabbed three random tournaments from your record from the last year or so. It looks like you'd have had trouble cashing in Rec.

(Note, this is nothing against you or your abilities, I'm looking at this purely from how you scored and how "fair" it would be.)

Hawsville everyone played the same tees, there was no Rec division, but you would have finished 23rd of 33 in Int.

Lake Cumberland, everyone played the same tees. Again, no rec division offered, you would have finished 14th out of 20 in INT.

Lexington this year, Adv Masters played different tees from Rec. Your average round rating was 809 for 4 rounds. The guy who finished 18th out of 22 in Rec averaged 810 for 4 rounds.

Now, as for your assertion that players are playing down to win, it looks to me like there are just a lot of non-members playing INT or Rec and some finish near the top. In general its pretty evenly distributed.

The two non-A tiers from above:

Hawsville 33 Ints, the places of the non-members:

1 2 4 7 9 10 14 17 19 23 23 28 30 30 32

The Median non-member finished 17th of 33.

Winner shot 948 golf for 2 rounds, that's not unexpected for someone near the top of a division with a cap at 915 (last year's cutoff).

Lake Cumberland 18 INTS

1 6 7T 7T 9 11 14 17T 17T

The median non-member finished 9th of 18.

This time the guy who won Int shot an insane first round and then the 3rd best Int round the second round and then the 10th best round out of the 16 that played the 3rd day. Perhaps the guy who shoots a 1000+ rated round shouldn't have been let play Int again in the tourney a month later (he's the one who finished 4th at Hawsville.) That's a TD problem that someone should bring up.

The one thing that no one is directly addressing is that the PDGA is a member organization and the majority of the members are rated below 935. It is also a pretty easy to prove that the largest opportunity for growth in new members is with players that are rated less than 935.

I have no problem with the PDGA working to make players in the lower rated ranges feel comfortable at tournaments and encouraging them to join and stay. These players are much more likely to be in it for fun and less concerned with how much they individually get out of it.

If you look at the average winnings of the Nov, Rec, and Int divisions, you will see that they are not getting rich even when they have the largest divisions. I play for fun, I get to go out and play a round every couple of weeks or so. For the last year I was playing a lot of tournament golf, the only rounds I got in were the ones at the tournaments. I have little doubt that I could be a 980+ golfer if I could play 3 rounds during the week and 4 over the weekend.

I can't do that so I will always be an inconsistent Am player. No problem for me. I have purchased more plastic than I will ever be able throw.

The biggest problem with James' version of the PDGA is that it is like Sparta. If you kill off all of the weaklings, all you have left is the strong. That's great if all you want are the strong and don't care how many there are. The Ams are not going to stay around long enough to develop into Pros unless they have a place to compete.

By compete I mean play without the assurance that they will have their head handed to them every round. There must be some chance of finishing near the top of your class to keep most people interested in playing tournament golf. It's the same everywhere in all sports. Even the ones that have multi-million dollar contracts for the pros.

While you were checking my stats did you happen to notice that my rating dropped 100 points? Brain tumors can do that to you. Especially if they happen to effect the leg and arm of your throwing side of your body. Seizures are another thing that can effect how you play. Like the time I had to be carried off the course during league. Consistency, strength, endurance, they are all gone, I still play up. Walk a mile in my shoes.

Why is there no amatuer association of disc golfers?



b/c the PDGA would dry up and disappear like an old scab if there was an ADGA.

Yeah, you can give me copout diversions, or claim that all arguments only reflect the economic interests of the arguer, but you really haven't given a rebuttal, one that persuades, one that shows that our system is intrinsically sporting, healthy, or even productive. You just argue that popularity (as the numbers Chuck commonly brings forth to "prove") must equal success. Keep believing that a people-churning, slowly growing demographic of the am class will one day yield a healthy, thriving sport.



If you don't care for the free market argument, how about the democracy one? The PDGA is a member organization, owned by members, and run by members (or their representatives). Shouldn't it do what the members want? Should the board members, as representatives, do what the members want? If the board members do as you wish, and outlaw payouts to Ams, why shouldn't the members replace them? If not, what would prevent others from hosting non-sanctioned tournaments, providing what most disc golfers clearly want (payouts for all skill levels), and drawing away the bulk of the players?

How is it a cop-out to ask someone who demands imposition of a radical and unwanted change, which is untested but testable, to test and demonstrate it?

By the way, for myself, Am prizes is not a disincentive to improving my game. Physical limitations are.

I haven't read through this post and don't intend to. I will give my opinion though. To start I am considered an AM, my rating currently stands at 934. It is my opinion that am's should get a good players pack and play for trophies only. Whatever money is left over should go toward the pro purse.

Let's face it, the PDGA is a professional association. It is designed to cater to the needs of professionals. The current system, IMO, allows am's to bag because the winnings they receive are worth it. I've made more money selling my winnings/plastic then a lot of local pros make playing tournaments. There's something wrong with that.

I'm moving to Pro now because I'm tired of the Am games. I'm tired of having to stick around and dig through bins of plastic. I'm tired of listing crap on Ebay to make my money back. The current system is whack. There's no motivation for am's to move up. Eventually, that will affect the growth of this sport.

My one example is this: I've been to a PGA event as a spectator and I've been to a Nationwide Tour event. The amount of people that show up to spectate at the PGA event far exceeds that of the Nationwide. Why is that? Because people don't care about the underlings.

For this sport to grow we need golfers like Nikko and Paul McBeth moving up. Kids that can target the younger generation. How many of you think that Little Wiggins is going to bag am forever? Not many I'm sure.

We need an am division, but we also need reasons for am's to move up and make room for the next generation. Hefty payouts in the am field is not the way to do that.

Of the 11,587 active members only 2900-3200 of them are "Pro." (based on filtered searches through the money/points standings)

If the other 8500 folks started an Amatuer Association, it would eliminate the current PDGA.

I would gladly attend tourneys where the players packs are worth the entry fees and winners recieve trophies. It is when players packs are next to nothing and winners get more merchandise than they can sell on Ebay that I have a problem. That is what encourages better players to play down to win big. Any plastic that I recieve through winnings or players packs that I don't throw goes back to the events that I host in players packs or payouts. If not there then they go to the events that I attend as CTPs. I have even been known to put cash CTPs up for pros at the events that I attend. I do not sell my stuff on Ebay like so many baggers do. I support all disc golfers from beginners to pros and I think that this organization should do the same.

The AM structure needs to move to the way they did it at the Memorial with a good players pack and trophies for the top 3-5.

Most disc golfers move up when they are ready and I still don't see a vast amount of 970+ rated ams that would be able to compete on the pro level. 950 rated pros would be donators and will sooner or later get tired of donating and completely drop out. IMHO 99% of all disc golfers are trying to do their best every time they come out and will turn pro when and if they are ready to compete pro. So saying we should overhaul the entire PDGA system for 20-40 players that MAY (and I emphasize may) be ready to play pro and are staying am for the plastic is funny to me.

Why on earth do you think all ams would flee if things were different. That fear is way overblown, imo. Haven't there been some am tournies already this year, where there were essentially trophies, or a super-flat payout? How did they do?

Many ams, if not most, do (and would continue to) play the sport for the proper reasons: they embrace competition, love the comraderie, want to test their skills, love the sport, etc. They also inately understand that the best should reap the most, even in our penny ante game. If we lose some because they won't play am if they don't profit, then fine. They are not who a sport should seek to attract, or retain. By the way, same goes for some of the other protected divisions. Cut the fat.

David, we see things differently. I don't see the PDGA as an organization that exists to serve its members first, and the sport second, but an organization that should serve the sport first and foremost. In a hundred years, if there is a legacy from the PDGA, it will be because it dedicated itself to building and managing a sport. If it instead focuses on the selfish interests of all it's members, it is doomed to irrelevancy.

I agree with you James, and by no means was i saying that Am's should/would flee if things were different. All i was trying to say is that 72% of the the <font color="red">P</font>DGA are amatuer players. What's keeping anyone from starting an ADGA?

I agree with you James, and by no means was i saying that Am's should/would flee if things were different. All i was trying to say is that 72% of the the <font color="red">P</font>DGA are amatuer players. What's keeping anyone from starting an ADGA?




Or starting a real PDGA for he Pros. Heck we could even have a series of events throughout the country that wouldn't crisscross about the country but FLOW.

BG ams had 700+ players.

BG ams had 700+ players.




Why do so many players go? Answer that and you might make James "happy".

If we lose some because they won't play am if they don't profit, then fine. They are not who a sport should seek to attract, or retain. By the way, same goes for some of the other protected divisions. Cut the fat.




So would you say this is why the pro ranks are infiltrated with greedy, whiny pros? :eek:

Fortunately, I think I've encountered more gracious pros than greedy pros.

BG ams had 700+ players.




Why do so many players go? Answer that and you might make James "happy".



Cabin Fever. :cool:

Once the unhealthy incentives are removed from the ams, I would also recommend measures that some pros would object to, namely allowing people to enter tournies at reduced prices, paying deeper, paying less steeply. You wouldn't necessarily have to do these things, and there would be resistance for sure, but I suspect they would result in bigger fields and a healthier long-term arrangement.

Separate thought..........So, based on some of the tournies this year, there is already data to negate the claim that the sky would fall if am payouts were changed? Chuck, are you aware of this? :D

If true, all of the compelling arguments against change have been rebutted. Nothing but rotting inertia remains.

How about, ams play for trophies, and pros get nothing from ams. There is no entitlement there. That would still be healthier than the present state, and no one could make dubious claims that pros are leeching off ams.



works for me, trophies are cool, you never really get that much plastic anyway, also it takes for ever to stand in line to pick it out. the td can just keep the am money instead of making it off the plastic payout. then maybe tournoments can be more profitable. of course just because i would still be happy to keep playing tourneys this way doesnt mean everyone would, so i guess we are right back where we started :confused:

I agree with you James, and by no means was i saying that Am's should/would flee if things were different. All i was trying to say is that 72% of the the <font color="red">P</font>DGA are amatuer players. What's keeping anyone from starting an ADGA?




Or starting a real PDGA for he Pros. Heck we could even have a series of events throughout the country that wouldn't crisscross about the country but FLOW.



While i agree that the tour doesn't flow as well as it could, you're still only catering to the 10-15 full time travelers if there was a restructure. You don't even want to see the percentage of traveling pros vs. the active members; it's down right embarrassing. :D

I do like whoever's idea it was to put $1 from EVERY PRO ENRTY FEE regardless of tier level into the Pro World's purse. That person needs to be nominated and elected into the BoD!

The bottom line here is that this is a professional organization composed of mostly amatuers. Can anyone give an example of another professional organization that parallels what we have here?

[QUOTE]
I agree with you James, and by no means was i saying that Am's should/would flee if things were different. All i was trying to say is that 72% of the the <font color="red">P</font>DGA are amatuer players. What's keeping anyone from starting an ADGA?



I do like whoever's idea it was to put $1 from EVERY PRO ENRTY FEE regardless of tier level into the Pro World's purse. That person needs to be nominated and elected into the BoD!





Actually he wouldn't be able to do it as he is scared of those OLD BoD guys. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


So far my complaining about the ratings lag brought about the double weighting and my complaining about baskets brought about a memberwide survey so maybe they will look at the $1 per entry thing as an easy way to support Pro worlds as well as something we could actually see our money used for,

I do like whoever's idea it was to put $1 from EVERY PRO ENRTY FEE regardless of tier level into the Pro World's purse. That person needs to be nominated and elected into the BoD!


Jim Orum @ Southern Nationals, but I doubt he'd run for the PDGA Board.

I do like whoever's idea it was to put $1 from EVERY PRO ENRTY FEE regardless of tier level into the Pro World's purse. That person needs to be nominated and elected into the BoD!


Jim Orum @ Southern Nationals, but I doubt he'd run for the PDGA Board.




No they take $2 we only need to take $1. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

James, one of the ways we see things differently is that I don't believe mandating trophy-only for Ams will work. I believe if the PDGA were to require it, or eliminate the various skill and age divisions among the Ams, most Ams would migrate to other organizations or non-sanctioned events. (When it comes to it, the PDGA is relatively powerless in forcing TDs or players to operate any particular way, as either can just pick up and leave).

On the other hand, I'd be quite happy for Am prizes to be significantly curtailed, possibly eliminated. But I don't see it as something the organization can or should do; but as a change in the mindset of disc golfers that should evolve through events like the Memorial, or the USDGC, or others.

Currently, the "entitlement" mindset exists among both our Pros &amp; Ams. As a group, everyone feels entitled to play for free---to have someone else undergo all the effort to prepare and organize and run a tournament, where the players, as a group, must get back at least 100% of their entries. I think a minimum of $20 of every entry fee should go towards the amenities and privilege of having an event available to play in for a whole day or weekend.

Mostly, I don't really see the Pros being hurt or abused by the Ams.....nor the Ams by the Pros.....if, as groups, they're playing for free or better. TDs are the most abused but, after all, we volunteer for it.

Separate thought..........So, based on some of the tournies this year, there is already data to negate the claim that the sky would fall if am payouts were changed? Chuck, are you aware of this?


Perhaps you misunderstand my point of view on Am payouts. I don't have a personal preference how ever they're done because the way they are done is chosen by the TDs. The PDGA competition system provides the flexibility to do so either with low entry fees and trophies, high entry fees with player packs and trophies or high entry fees with player packs, trophies and prizes. The PDGA tries to do what seems to be working based on member preference and participation. So I have no problem with what The Memorial was doing. I wouldn't play it under the strategy they used but then I wouldn't play it anyway since I've had enough of those courses and would like to play others for the same cost of attending a big event.

Ok, you've given up the argument that paying ams is the ultimate enticement, one that is needed to attract and retain an am base that will one day magically produce a sport. Instead, the most positive quality of our system isn't related to the payout structure at all, it is that the system allows for choice? The debate shifts. We no longer need to pay ams in order to grow the sport, but we do it just to satisfy their desires?

We do what members want which is transmitted by what the TDs are willing or prefer to offer for events. Nothing esoteric about it. You presume that the PDGA "should" be all about your traditional definition of sport, but it's really about providing a framework to compete in a variety of fair ways, with stricter rules for higher levels of play in terms of tiers, not necessarily skill levels of players. The PDGA provides this for those wanting to play the game of disc golf and those competing in the sport of disc golf. There is much crossover with many members choosing to do both depending on their options each day. This is completely evident from the responses so far in the basket survey which runs the gamut of opinons along this divide between favoring the game versus favoring the sport.

Right, like I said, the PDGA exists to satisfy the majority of player's desires. The majority is average, and by extension, our ceiling is average. Hardly a goal for a sport.

Hardly a goal for a sport.


And again, you presume that's THE goal. May be your goal but apparently your traditional sporting approach does not have a strong following among the membership.

James, I'm curious as to how you feel your philosophy would play out, if it could be enacted.

If the PDGA were to go to 2 divisions, Pro &amp; Amateur, and trophy-only for Amateur. I'll grant that the small number of 970-rated Advanced players who are racking up stacks of plastic would probably choose to play Pro instead. How do you see it playing out for the rest of the current Ams?

In my state, there is only one Am with a rating over 955---and he played his first tournament in March 2008, so is almost certain to move up soon. Most of our 950+ rated players already play Open.

So the 930-rated players---you think they'll move up, pay higher entry fees, and lose by 40 strokes every week? Or stay amateur and play for the sport of it? Or play non-PDGA disc golf? How will this help the PDGA, or the sport, or the existing Pros, in the long run?

What about the 900-rated players? Surely they won't play Pro. Nor win trophies, for that matter. Will they keep playing just to finish in the middle of the huge Am division. Even if they do, and certainly if they leave, how will it help the PDGA, or the sport, or the existing Pros?

If so, how about the 850-rated?

You've mentioned before about players improving their game and moving up, but what about those of us who've plateaued due to limited athletic skill or age or injuries?

I understand, though disagree with, what seems an aesthetic objection that weaker players often win more than stronger players in our current system. But I seem to have missed how, in a real-world setting, changing this would in any way change the outlook for our top Pros, or the sport as a whole.

Maybe I'm just missing something obvious. Can you give me a clearer, more detailed picture of how you envision this working, if you could waive a wand and get the PDGA and TDs to go along?

basket survey??? What is that? Are we going to make the baskets much bigger in order to satisfy the average person's desire to make a putt?

If what you say is true, about most members wanting the PDGA to be a social club, then this thread should not be about a pro association versus an am association. Instead, it should be about an association for the sport and an association for whatever else there is, presumably smoking dope and drinking beer while throwing frisbees.

Like I said, we have members at both ends of the spectrum who are fine with a non-competitive game and those who want elite competition. Most members choose both and will play throwing against trees in the woods or USDGC. The PDGA tries to accommodate that diversity not just among members but within members. It's not that complicated to see that.

While this sport may have been founded by people such as you speak, your comments are uncalled for. Because of narrow minded people who think that is all disc golf is I have have to show the school system here where I live that is not the thing that disc golf is about.

I have a fifty year plan or so. For now, what I envinsion for a disc golfer looking at a tournament is choosing between two basic options: the first option is paying a fee that results in amenities and a desirable experience, but no loot. I actually don't care if there are multiple divisions in this option, if that is what it takes to attract people, then I'd certainly support it. However, I suspect the bulk of people, over time at least, will migrate to the biggest division. The lack of bagging incentive will naturally limit the number of divisions.

The other option is to gamble, and play for sponsor money when possible. This tract has very few options. Female/male, maybe a few age breakdowns. Creative options will be used to allow people to gamble at a reasonable price. Staggered entry fees based on ability, separate entry fee levels. Deeper payouts. All these will entice more people to play up, and keep their losses manageable.

Fundamentally, I want to change the nature of our sporting events, and thereby change our demographic. I think our competitive structure is partially to blame for our ills. I want to be able to attract, and retain competitive people, of all abilities. These types of personalities will at least offer a hope for the future, in numerous ways. First, they respect competition, and the sport. Therefore, they will be more cognizant of the sport's image. This is a longterm liability facing our growth. Second, they appreciate ability, and naturally enjoy watching the top players, and are likely to form the spectator class we also need. This is a longterm vision, but it starts with changing to a positive cycle of attracting a stronger demographic and shedding some of the dead weight.

While this sport may have been founded by people such as you speak, your comments are uncalled for. Because of narrow minded people who think that is all disc golf is I have have to show the school system here where I live that is not the thing that disc golf is about.



I think we share the same values here. Sorry if you took it that I was embracing that perception, but it exists, and it is legit, imo. Cleaning up our system will help clean up our sport.

I recall that at Am Worlds there has generally been an under 940 or 930 side bet available for players that had slim hopes of cashing in the normal payouts to join and have a chance of cashing.

The point is that players will seek levels of competition where they feel they have a chance to win and will find a way to put money into it. If you do not offer them that platform, they will create it amongst themselves. If you do not offer something that appeals to the players, they will provide it for each other.

I have no problem with side bets, and don't aim to prevent them. It just shouldn't be the sanctioned mode of running an amateur competition.

If you are saying that a sport will not be played, unless it is for money, then baloney. Competitors have been doing this since the dawn of time.

I have a fifty year plan or so.



But do you have a one year plan? Run tournaments your way and see if people come. If your plan is garbage, then hopefully you'll find out quickly.


Fundamentally, I want to change the nature of our sporting events, and thereby change our demographic.




So, you're really just a politician :) How about this, change YOUR events. If your ideas work, then others will follow. If you have to change the world before your ideas will work, . . . .


Having a vision for the future is fine and dandy, but one reason people don't trust politicians is that someone else always does the hard work and everybody else ends up paying for it.

The discussion was about PDGA policy: what is best for the long-term. A debate of ideas. It's not that hard to follow.

All that I am saying is that if the PDGA was built in the model you describe, I would not have stayed around long enough to get better and become interested in tournament golf. I would still be playing with a few friends when I could get to the course. I suspect that many other players would be in the same boat. I kept logs on what I spent and what I won while in those lucrative Am divisions. I never came close to breaking even at retail values. I mean $6K - $8K a year in the hole.

Since I have had the opportunity to play in divisions where I feel I am competitive on a good day, I joined the PDGA. When they announced the availability of Ace club memberships I joined as one of those. I missed the first year, but none since. My wife got laid off just before they started the Eagle Club, or I would have joined as one of those. I support local events, volunteer many hours most weeks, and offer my help to anyone that asks. I will never be a pro caliber player and I am comfortable with that. But if the PDGA followed your model, I would have never joined.

I admire the ambition of a 50-year plan. Though I expect to be gone, or at least senile, long before 2058.

I'm guilty of much less ambition. I've seen disc golf grow bigger and better over my dozen years, and simply want to see it improve each upcoming year for as long as I last. I'm happy however far that takes us, even though I don't believe it will ever take us to the level of a major-league sport (TV, million-dollar salaries, etc.).

Since I started I've seen an enormous increase in the number of courses and tournaments available to play in. An increase in tournament players and casual players and quality of competition. An increase in money, higher-level courses, higher-quality events. A huge increase in recognition by the non-disc-golfing public.

I support continuing those trends.

Which, I guess, makes me part of that demographic you'd wish to change. Sorry.

BG ams had 700+ players.




Why do so many players go? Answer that and you might make James "happy".

So many go because they think so many are going. That's all there is to BG. Everything else about the tournament is average at best.

Since I started I've seen an enormous increase in the number of courses and tournaments available to play in. An increase in tournament players and casual players and quality of competition. An increase in money, higher-level courses, higher-quality events. A huge increase in recognition by the non-disc-golfing public.

I support continuing those trends.

Which, I guess, makes me part of that demographic you'd wish to change. Sorry.



Our experiences are vastly different. Over my twenty years, I've seen manafacturers do well, course designers do well, apparel people rise up, many more low-skilled people hanging out at the course, smoking dope and drinking beer. However, I have seen relatively no change at the top of our sport.

I always hear (or used to always hear) that "Just continue to grow the ams, grow a big base, that will naturally yield more higher level players and therefore, a legit sport." Well, that premise hasn't played out as advertised. One might think it would, but it hasn't. Some people would ask why? Some people would ask why, and then try to address it, if they really cared about the sport. But, the PDGA has devolved into a club, where many of the serious competitors have gotten bored and left, and where the leaders simply want to pander to the majority rather than steward a sport.

I have witnessed on this board, influential members argue that this system was necessary to build a sport. Basically, they said: "we agree that the sport comes first, but this is our way to build the sport." At least this attitude had the pretense that the sport actually mattered. Now, they don't even pretend that the sport comes first. It's now "The majority wants to be a club, not a sport, suck it up." Wow, ping pong and teatherball are more likely our future than ball golf.

btw, your statement about the demographic was way off base, but I suspect you know that. The demographic I am describing cares more about disc golf being a sport than disc golf being some club activity where their buds can get together to hang out.

Why BG ams?
Players packs that are worth the money.
Worlds feel without having to spend a fortune on lodging for a week.
Lots of competition.
Great courses.
Excellent flymart.
Bowling Green is a disc golf buffet.

However, I have seen relatively no change at the top of our sport.


Pretty simple really. Even the many times we've put on our top level events, and believe me the USDGC has tried, we don't attract many spectators. Without them, there's no financial basis to support the professional side of the sport at this time. Should we go "boo hoo" and not continue building participation among those who play disc golf because that part's not taking off yet? Of course not. You go with what seems to be working and what members seem to want based on how they spend their dollars.

Seems? Working for who? Working for what? or towards what?

You don't build a spectator class by pandering to those who don't value skills, and therefore have no desire to spectate. It is not that complex.

Fundamentally, the members decide the priorities in tandem with economic realities. Regarding spectators, I'm not sure it's something you can figure out how to "build" if it doesn't happen right away other than bigger participation numbers in the sport. Larger participation in softball, kayaking and orienteering still hasn't resulted in big pro payouts.

Consider surfing TV channels. You instantly can tell if it's something you want to watch. Two person beach volleyball was a sport created for TV and had instant viewership. No building spectatorship over 20 years. Some sports have it and others don't but it doesn't mean those sports aren't worthwhile, good exercise and fun to play.

I have no true desire to watch any sport. Playing is what makes me happy. Sure there are a lot of talented players out there, but I am not entertained by watching others so much as by doing things myself.

How will removing am payouts cause the sport to grow? I just can't seem to see the chain of events that would lead there.

I'm not advocating removing am payouts, but one way it could help disc golf grow is by making it more feasible for park districts to run disc golf leagues/tournaments the way they run any other league/tournament (i.e. Trophy only). Currently they have to compete with PDGA tournaments with the payout structure. Since players seem to prefer the AM payout structure, they are less likely to participate in the park district events. If the PDGA went to no payout for AMs, then the park districts could compete with the PDGA for players. More locally run leagues/tournaments could increase the organized player base.

Fundamentally, the members decide the priorities in tandem with economic realities. Regarding spectators, I'm not sure it's something you can figure out how to "build" if it doesn't happen right away other than bigger participation numbers in the sport. Larger participation in softball, kayaking and orienteering still hasn't resulted in big pro payouts.

Consider surfing TV channels. You instantly can tell if it's something you want to watch. Two person beach volleyball was a sport created for TV and had instant viewership. No building spectatorship over 20 years. Some sports have it and others don't but it doesn't mean those sports aren't worthwhile, good exercise and fun to play.



I don't follow this. The obvious model for us is ball golf. Spectating in ball golf probably started at the course, by people who had a competitive nature. On tv, most people who watch are those that have played, and had a competitive mindset, and thereby admire the skills that they don't possess. The sport of disc golf, tends to run off these people, and attract and retain those who could care less about seeing our best players.

How will removing am payouts cause the sport to grow?


Reduce the need for bagging so players compete for the "right" competitive reason. It will work to prevent bagging because players will just stop entering those type of sanctioned events at all... :o

One of the TDs in my state has non sanctioned events just for beginner and novice divisions. Low entry fee, modest player pack, prizes for winners as well as "door prizes" just for coming. Not all prizes are disc related, but it gives these beginners a place to start. If the PDGA could embrace this type of thing and add to it membership would increase.

How will removing am payouts cause the sport to grow?


Reduce the need for bagging so players compete for the "right" competitive reason. It will work to prevent bagging because players will just stop entering those type of sanctioned events at all... :o



So we have huge numbers of people that can play 1000 rated golf but choose not to so they can win $75 in plastic and after they sell it on Ebay and pay their fees and shipping they might have $40. Oh I see now. :confused:

I'm not naive, I realize there would be a transition. The transition would be messy for some, and there might be a numbers setback, but I have no doubt that in twenty years, fifty years, a hundred years, the sport would be much healthier than it would be on our present track. I am also not naive enough to not expect some discomfort in the non-am class. With no payouts for ams, and more people looking upward, TDs will naturally institute financial arrangements that hurt some at the top. However, in twenty years, those at the top will be much better off under a revamped system than under our present system.

The obvious model for us is ball golf. Spectating in ball golf probably started at the course, by people who had a competitive nature.


Nowhere close to a model that's relevant on which to base our competition system. Different demographic. Spectating isn't that big in ball golf in comparison to many big time sports. Much is attributable to star worship ala Tiger plus Arnie and Jack before him. But their demographic is so focused that it makes the market cost effective for products of certain companies even with low TV viewership.

The obvious model for us is ball golf. Spectating in ball golf probably started at the course, by people who had a competitive nature.


Nowhere close to a model that's relevant on which to base our competition system. Different demographic. Spectating isn't that big in ball golf in comparison to many big time sports. Much is attributable to star worship ala Tiger plus Arnie and Jack before him. But their demographic is so focused that it makes the market cost effective for products of certain companies even with low TV viewership.



Wow, my normal disagreement with you has gone to a new level.

Our experiences are vastly different. Over my twenty years, I've seen manafacturers do well, course designers do well, apparel people rise up, many more low-skilled people hanging out at the course, smoking dope and drinking beer. However, I have seen relatively no change at the top of our sport.

...

btw, your statement about the demographic was way off base, but I suspect you know that. The demographic I am describing cares more about disc golf being a sport than disc golf being some club activity where their buds can get together to hang out.



At the top of the sport---where, admittedly, I don't hang out---12 years ago I saw one player dominating. Now, he seems to be playing just as well, but there are perhaps many more competitors of equal quality.

12 years ago, there were no events like the USDGC. Now it looks like we have not only the USDGC, but others raising the standards of quality and payouts.

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I don't think there were $8,000 or $10,000 payouts, or $40,000+ annual winnings at the top of the sport back then.

So I guess our experience is different, since I see improvement at the top of the sport.

As for the changing demographic, I don't think I was way off base, unless you took it wrong. You expressed a desire to change the demographics. I'm part of the current demographic, the ones that like where we are and where we're going (more or less). Not trying to sound offended or be offensive---just admitting and pointing out that this is where we agree to disagree.

James, I've read all your comments in this thread and couldn't agree with you more. The problem however is always that the protectionist system has been in place far too long and they're all weaned on it. I see it happening all the time with amateur players - on local internet message boards and via word of mouth they pass along information about which tournaments have the best payouts, and which payouts "suck." They may advise each other to skip a tournament that is held on a beautiful world class course and/or with many other nice attributes simply because the payout of that TD is known to be weak in comparison to other "rich" events. They openly brag about winning discs and selling them on eBay.

We're always going to stick with this system because that's what the membership asks for and makes them happy. People can argue about the competition system until they are blue in the face, but the facts are that many people would cry bloody murder if the system were ever changed. And since no sane organization would do anything to jeopardize its membership or income and basically take measures that might bite the hand that feeds them, we're stuck with this. From the standpoint of the spirit of true competition, even if it makes all the sense in the world to make changes, it just ain't happening. Ever.

This is always an entertaining discussion, but until there are major sponsors providing outrageous monetary incentives to play Open, nothing will change. Ultimately, this is always just spinning our wheels in the sand.

The obvious model for us is ball golf. Spectating in ball golf probably started at the course, by people who had a competitive nature.


Nowhere close to a model that's relevant on which to base our competition system. Different demographic. Spectating isn't that big in ball golf in comparison to many big time sports. Much is attributable to star worship ala Tiger plus Arnie and Jack before him. But their demographic is so focused that it makes the market cost effective for products of certain companies even with low TV viewership.



Wow, my normal disagreement with you has gone to a new level.



On this I'll side with Chuck, sort of. First, how many people really watch Ball Golf and who are they? Chuck is right, with the exception of Tiger and a few other super stars, most people don't watch Ball Golf. Those who do, play. You aren't going to build a fan base to watch this sport by emulating Ball Golf. Second, it is unlikely you are going to build a fan base no matter what you do. We live in the year 2008. How many people watch skate boarding? Mountain Biking? Swimming? Orgami? Table Tennis? Badminton? Softball? Snowboarding? Diving? Sky Diving? Ultimate? Dog Disc? Freestyle? Video Game competitions? Hot Dog eating? Shuffle Board? Darts? Chess? Field Hockey? Gymnastics? Dancing, of any variety excluding that with a pole? Not to mention dozens of other sports/psuedo-sports.

Keep in mind that even where these sports do well, i.e. gets on T.V. for example, it's due to manufacturing dollars because of high participation, not a huge fan base.

The point here is that there are so many sports and venues that compete for entertainment dollars that it takes a fluke to get any real attention whatsoever. Getting and holding that attention requires a lot of money and a very big driving force, period. The reality is that real growth is going to be in participation, not in fan base or some other measure. That will make a bigger sport, but not a rich one.

What you say is true: the earnings for the top guys has increased. I would prefer a measure like return on investment, instead of earnings. I think on an ROI basis, nothing has probably changed for all but a few guys. Conversely, but related, the ROI for the bulk of other pros has decreased.

There have always been big, good tourneys, it's just that back then, the winner payed $35 to enter and won $400, now they pay $130 and win $1,500. The number of people they are competing against, a measure sponsors are interested in, and a natural measure for a growing sport, has changed little. In sum, total earnings of the top pros, is a poor measure of the health of the class, just as the number of billionaires in a third world culture tells one little about the health of that country's economy.

The added cash in the USDGC is certainly a glimmer of hope, but I don't see that as any kind of model to build on, or even sustainable. I hope I am dead wrong in that regard.

Jeff, I fully share your pessimism. ;)

I just occasionally like to shout in the darkness, maybe change a few minds, or get someone, somewhere thinking.

James, I've read all your comments in this thread and couldn't agree with you more. The problem however is always that the protectionist system has been in place far too long and they're all weaned on it. I see it happening all the time with amateur players - on local internet message boards and via word of mouth they pass along information about which tournaments have the best payouts, and which payouts "suck." They may advise each other to skip a tournament that is held on a beautiful world class course and/or with many other nice attributes simply because the payout of that TD is known to be weak in comparison to other "rich" events. They openly brag about winning discs and selling them on eBay.

We're always going to stick with this system because that's what the membership asks for and makes them happy. People can argue about the competition system until they are blue in the face, but the facts are that many people would cry bloody murder if the system were ever changed. And since no sane organization would do anything to jeopardize its membership or income and basically take measures that might bite the hand that feeds them, we're stuck with this. From the standpoint of the spirit of true competition, even if it makes all the sense in the world to make changes, it just ain't happening. Ever.

This is always an entertaining discussion, but until there are major sponsors providing outrageous monetary incentives to play Open, nothing will change. Ultimately, this is always just spinning our wheels in the sand.



Jeff has a point sort of. The reality is that the profit margins on winning plastic and reselling it is way to thin to do it for long. I'm guessing that there is always some player doing it, but no one does it regularly as a habit. Oh, you might have a couple of young guys doing it for a while but none of them are making real money in this way. It's hard just to make money as a Pro, how can you make an argument that someone is doing this on plastic turnover?

What's more, to make money at this as a Pro, you have to travel, you have to either team up and drive together or be sponsored by a big producer. How many Ams travel? How could an am make real money locally over a long period?
This perspective that there are all these Ams making a killing at this ignores financial realities.

Do players look for the best playing events, of course, if I pay $30 for an event and the guy pays out 20$ per entry, I'm going to go for an event that pays out $25. This isn't greed or some ulterior motive, it's best value for your entry. However, Bruce B. puts the lie to the idea that it's all about that final payout. By offering unique formats with lots of food and other goodies that make the event fun, he gets great turnout and participation.

Here's something to think about, how many Ams play PDGA events verses Ams playing leagues, mini events and other smaller venues that pay at most a few discs? I'd be willing to bet that most Ams aren't playing for the supposed huge benefits in those "big" tournaments, but rather for the competition and fun of this sport in the lesser venues. I know this is true in Texas just from the total number of events I see and the participation in them vs. the big events.

Lyle, I am not envisioning disc golf on tv, ruling the airspace, or even on tv at all. I am just envisioning crowds watching people do things they admire. How rich that makes those good golfers is not a goal at all. This is how ball golf started to create a professional class, IIRC.

And by the way, ball golf might not be football or basketball, but it has been heading in a drection the last hundred years we can only dream of.

James, if you are comparing our sport to ball golf, a 50 year plan is insanely aggressive.

For the record, as an Amatuer, I play for the competition, not for the prizes, as I rarely win anything of value, or at all. However, if I see a 1-day C-tier charging $50, I am highly unlikely to go. I am even less likely to go if they have a "$30 valued players pack" consisting of a sticker, dx disc I'll never use, coupons, and a mini, or the like. I am even less likely to go if the payouts suck in relation to the entry fee. I am all for trophy-only if entry fee is reasonable. However, entry fees are getting out of control for the ROI. If C-tiers were $8-15 trophy only or $20 TO with like a disc as player's pack, I would attend a ton more tournaments.
What really sucks is driving 2-3 hours, paying $40 for a 1-day C-tier and getting a dx aviar in comparison to driving the same distance, paying $10-15 for T-O.
edit: As for the latter, I've never seen it. At least not anywhere close to here.

I'm only talking about direction. Magnitude will find it's level, whatever that may be.

On that point though, I do think disc golf as a game is intrinsically every bit as attractive as ball golf is, both in its demands and its rewards. And it is cheaper, requires less energy input and land. Inherent advantages for the future. As the quality of our courses increases, I suspect that will be felt by many people.

Besides, if in 100 years, if we are ball golf's less attractive sister, but still attractive nonetheless, that is a good thing.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that ball golf has been losing numbers over the past few years. Its one of the reasons I started playing disc golf... I couldn't afford to pay $50 to play a round of golf as a college student so I picked up a disc and tried it. I hope that we can pick up some of the numbers that ball golf are losing due to the relatively inexpensive nature of our sport.

invite the ladies to play in suductive clothing like the 2 person vollyball and allow alchohol then maybe we'd get tv coverage

I do think disc golf as a game is intrinsically every bit as attractive as ball golf



From a spectator's view I think there's 10x more drama in ball golf. Take putting for instance, a 60 foot double breaker in ball golf takes 5 or 6 seconds from when the golfer taps the ball until it falls in the cup. That's dramatic! Take the same 60 foot putt in disc golf and it's over and done with in less than 2 seconds.

Posts that mention people having to play the sport to appreciate what just happened are spot on!

Posts that mention people having to play the sport to appreciate what just happened are spot on!



Agreed. I've got a few disc golf DVDs that seem to be the bane of my non-disc golf playing roommate's existence. He says watching bass fishing is more entertaining.

As far as eliminating prizes for Am divisions is concerned, that's a tough one. I don't think the financial incentive is very strong. It seems to me that the primary motivation of a bagger is to stroke their ego. They just like seeing low numbers on their PDGA profiles. In fact, I think having a mantle strewn with trophies is probably more appealing to that type of person than a box full of discs.

Well I think that C tiers should have an upper ratings cap(1000 might be a good number) to make a forum for the 980 rated player to be competitive but that is a whole other can of worms.

I think that if a 980 rated open player wants to play in an NT event then he has to realize that his odds of cashing are very low.

I strongly disagree. You have a better shot at cashing at an NT event because of the large number of pro players (and AMs playing up in the pro division for the experience). If your local tournaments have 8 pro players and 3 are 1020+ then that 4th guy is almost always not going to cash. At an NT he will likely not place in the top 10 or so but will have a good chance of getting cash in the lower spots.

The reason people play Bowling Green is because it's the only way to get points to go to Worlds. If you live in a nearby state and want to be invited to Worlds, you _must_ play Bowling Green because the other people in your state will end up with more points (filling the state's invite allotment).

Greg, if your local tournaments suck w.r.t. payout then don't play them. Based on your descriptions, it does sound like the AMs are getting screwed (based on the current PDGA payout system). I'm not sure if the TD is following the PDGA's recommended payout distribution either. Vote with your dollars and your feet... do not support that TD's tournaments. Perhaps even run one of your own if you are so inclined. Personally, I would like to see a flat fee for all AM divisions and have a killer players pack and trophies. NO payout... if you want to win something besides a trophy then play Pro.

Well I think that C tiers should have an upper ratings cap(1000 might be a good number) to make a forum for the 980 rated player to be competitive but that is a whole other can of worms.

I think that if a 980 rated open player wants to play in an NT event then he has to realize that his odds of cashing are very low.

I strongly disagree. You have a better shot at cashing at an NT event because of the large number of pro players (and AMs playing up in the pro division for the experience). If your local tournaments have 8 pro players and 3 are 1020+ then that 4th guy is almost always not going to cash. At an NT he will likely not place in the top 10 or so but will have a good chance of getting cash in the lower spots.

The reason people play Bowling Green is because it's the only way to get points to go to Worlds. If you live in a nearby state and want to be invited to Worlds, you _must_ play Bowling Green because the other people in your state will end up with more points (filling the state's invite allotment).

Greg, if your local tournaments suck w.r.t. payout then don't play them. Based on your descriptions, it does sound like the AMs are getting screwed (based on the current PDGA payout system). I'm not sure if the TD is following the PDGA's recommended payout distribution either. Vote with your dollars and your feet... do not support that TD's tournaments. Perhaps even run one of your own if you are so inclined. Personally, I would like to see a flat fee for all AM divisions and have a killer players pack and trophies. NO payout... if you want to win something besides a trophy then play Pro.




Show me an event that has 3 1020+ guys out of 8. Also it is definantly harder to cash at NTs and A-tiers Vs C and B-tiers..

BTW just as many AMs hate BG as those who love it. I know I wouldn't have gone to it as an AM becuase of the fvact you have to play there to get a lot of points which was something I wasn't a fan of.

The reason people play Bowling Green is because it's the only way to get points to go to Worlds. If you live in a nearby state and want to be invited to Worlds, you _must_ play Bowling Green because the other people in your state will end up with more points (filling the state's invite allotment).

This statement is completly false this year you only needed 1000 points in Am 1 to go to worlds. You could easily play a couple other tournments and still get enough points to go to worlds.

Agreed. I've got a few disc golf DVDs that seem to be the bane of my non-disc golf playing roommate's existence. He says watching bass fishing is more entertaining.




This one gets my vote for quote of the day. BTW - I frequently watch DG DVDs, but I'm watching to learn, not for the drama of it.

That is funny!

If i want some peace and quiet, all I have to do is pop in an old Worlds DVD and watch the living room clear out. "Hey boys, let me forward to the point where Barry makes that big putt and .......... hey, where are you all going?"

Let's face it, if you aren't a player (or wasn't one in the past), watching the sport probably doesn't do much for you. Kind of like bass fishing contests. If you're a fisherman, it might hold your attention for awhile. If not, goodbye. Someone who has never swung a club at a dimpled ball probably isn't very interested in paying extra to the cable company to subscribe to the golf channel either.

This is why IMO the grass roots effort probably our best chance at sponsorship and possibly being able to support a true pro player base down the road. That and having TDs operating as promoters so they also have financial incentive to do better and create bigger (i.e. more money for purse as well as TD compensation) events. Get more people hooked on the sport and the potential customer base for a sponsor might start looking attractive. Other methods mentioned (trying to force people to donate through division manipulation, skimming a percentage of member's PDGA dues, taking from one division and moving it to another because they should be happy just to play) are going to encourage the formation of other alternatives outside the PDGA . That and drive off members and reduce the total number of tournament participants.

Of course if someone feels differently, the PDGA sanctioning agreements allow the leeway for people to run the type of tournaments that they themselves want to play in. Give it a try!

One personal observation I have in regard to Am's bagging in Advanced instead of Open is...

I've played about 40 pdga events total and started in Intermediate being rated 984. After that event I moved up to Advanced and cashed 34/38 times in three years as an "Am." I also sold my discs and whatever I won on Ebay was used to fund my old tourney habit. Most of the time I would just hook my non-pdga buddies up with free discs. I didnt really care. But the thing is I can think of at least ten events where I felt I could not have played any worse and still cashed or even made top 5. This is not the way to get better. If you are someone who feels they played crappy and still did well for their division you need to re-consider what you are doing in that division. I admit I like seeing low number next to my name, at first, but now I would much rather play "Up" in Open and play with better players . I was selfish and bagged it up at the A-Tier in Flagstaff cuz I wanted to win it, but I took second and was really disappointed in how I played. REALIZATION HERE Ive turned down cash once (played open once) and it was a lot more fun. Got to see a 1050 round and actually hung with him. Its too bad Flagstaff has so few sanctioned events.

There are many other things to consider before you castigate baggers...

If you play a lot of events and ALWAYS cash even when you are unhappy with your performance, move up or at least try it once and see what happens.

Also need to consider your state in which you reside.

An Arizona Advanced player is different (very few players with established 950+ ratings) than a Wisconsin Advanced player rating wise and quantity wise. (my old state, many established 950+ Ams when I lived there)

I'll see you in Open

That is funny!

If i want some peace and quiet, all I have to do is pop in an old Worlds DVD and watch the living room clear out. "Hey boys, let me forward to the point where Barry makes that big putt and .......... hey, where are you all going?"

Let's face it, if you aren't a player (or wasn't one in the past), watching the sport probably doesn't do much for you. Kind of like bass fishing contests. If you're a fisherman, it might hold your attention for awhile. If not, goodbye. Someone who has never swung a club at a dimpled ball probably isn't very interested in paying extra to the cable company to subscribe to the golf channel either.

This is why IMO the grass roots effort probably our best chance at sponsorship and possibly being able to support a true pro player base down the road. That and having TDs operating as promoters so they also have financial incentive to do better and create bigger (i.e. more money for purse as well as TD compensation) events. Get more people hooked on the sport and the potential customer base for a sponsor might start looking attractive. Other methods mentioned (trying to force people to donate through division manipulation, skimming a percentage of member's PDGA dues, taking from one division and moving it to another because they should be happy just to play) are going to encourage the formation of other alternatives outside the PDGA . That and drive off members and reduce the total number of tournament participants.

Of course if someone feels differently, the PDGA sanctioning agreements allow the leeway for people to run the type of tournaments that they themselves want to play in. Give it a try!

What I think about all this is, disc golf is a really fun game to play. Maybe not so appealing to watch unless you already play the game. But it has only been around with baskets in the parks for about 30 years. You look at any other game that is fun to play but kind of boring to watch, like golf or bowling, and it took those games hundreds of years to build a player and fan base big enough to support a professional cadre at the top of the sport.

All we can really do to get there is play the game, enjoy it, introduce others to the game, and know that there is an inevitability to this game someday supporting a true pro class of players. We aren't nearly big enough for that to happen next year or in five years.

You need 5 million viewers to support a prime time TV show. Monday Night Football gets 10 or 15 million viewers. You need that kind of advertising revenue to support a serious professional tour. We just do not have those kinds of numbers fanatical about the game yet.

But it is really a fun game and there is no reason why it will not continue to grow. It is going to grow whether TDs scam the ams or whether TDs spend the ams money on the ams. Tournaments have almost nothing to do with the growth of the game. Most players don't even know there are tournaments.

The reason people play Bowling Green is because it's the only way to get points to go to Worlds. If you live in a nearby state and want to be invited to Worlds, you _must_ play Bowling Green because the other people in your state will end up with more points (filling the state's invite allotment).

This statement is completly false this year you only needed 1000 points in Am 1 to go to worlds. You could easily play a couple other tournments and still get enough points to go to worlds.



i dont understand why there is any conversation about this at all. you dont need any points to play worlds. sure, you wont get the fancy invite. but they take anyone who wants to pay the fee. points are moot. end of story.

The reason people play Bowling Green is because it's the only way to get points to go to Worlds. If you live in a nearby state and want to be invited to Worlds, you _must_ play Bowling Green because the other people in your state will end up with more points (filling the state's invite allotment).

This statement is completly false this year you only needed 1000 points in Am 1 to go to worlds. You could easily play a couple other tournments and still get enough points to go to worlds.



i dont understand why there is any conversation about this at all. you dont need any points to play worlds. sure, you wont get the fancy invite. but they take anyone who wants to pay the fee. points are moot. end of story.



I couldn't agree more with you, Zach. To me, the fancy invite is silly and anyone who wants to play in Pro or Am worlds can easily get in off the waiting list. But to some others (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&amp;%20Standards&amp;Number=79 6999&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Main=796999&amp;Search=true&amp;#Post796 999), the invite may mean all the difference in the world.

The reason people play Bowling Green is because it's the only way to get points to go to Worlds. If you live in a nearby state and want to be invited to Worlds, you _must_ play Bowling Green because the other people in your state will end up with more points (filling the state's invite allotment).

This statement is completly false this year you only needed 1000 points in Am 1 to go to worlds. You could easily play a couple other tournments and still get enough points to go to worlds.



i dont understand why there is any conversation about this at all. you dont need any points to play worlds. sure, you wont get the fancy invite. but they take anyone who wants to pay the fee. points are moot. end of story.



I couldn't agree more with you, Zach. To me, the fancy invite is silly and anyone who wants to play in Pro or Am worlds can easily get in off the waiting list. But to some others (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&amp;%20Standards&amp;Number=79 6999&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Main=796999&amp;Search=true&amp;#Post796 999), the invite may mean all the difference in the world.




At least if you are playing Pro worlds. AM worlds might not be so easy to get in to.

That is funny!

If i want some peace and quiet, all I have to do is pop in an old Worlds DVD and watch the living room clear out. "Hey boys, let me forward to the point where Barry makes that big putt and .......... hey, where are you all going?"

Let's face it, if you aren't a player (or wasn't one in the past), watching the sport probably doesn't do much for you. Kind of like bass fishing contests. If you're a fisherman, it might hold your attention for awhile. If not, goodbye. Someone who has never swung a club at a dimpled ball probably isn't very interested in paying extra to the cable company to subscribe to the golf channel either.

This is why IMO the grass roots effort probably our best chance at sponsorship and possibly being able to support a true pro player base down the road. That and having TDs operating as promoters so they also have financial incentive to do better and create bigger (i.e. more money for purse as well as TD compensation) events. Get more people hooked on the sport and the potential customer base for a sponsor might start looking attractive. Other methods mentioned (trying to force people to donate through division manipulation, skimming a percentage of member's PDGA dues, taking from one division and moving it to another because they should be happy just to play) are going to encourage the formation of other alternatives outside the PDGA . That and drive off members and reduce the total number of tournament participants.

Of course if someone feels differently, the PDGA sanctioning agreements allow the leeway for people to run the type of tournaments that they themselves want to play in. Give it a try!

What I think about all this is, disc golf is a really fun game to play. Maybe not so appealing to watch unless you already play the game. But it has only been around with baskets in the parks for about 30 years. You look at any other game that is fun to play but kind of boring to watch, like golf or bowling, and it took those games hundreds of years to build a player and fan base big enough to support a professional cadre at the top of the sport.

All we can really do to get there is play the game, enjoy it, introduce others to the game, and know that there is an inevitability to this game someday supporting a true pro class of players. We aren't nearly big enough for that to happen next year or in five years.

You need 5 million viewers to support a prime time TV show. Monday Night Football gets 10 or 15 million viewers. You need that kind of advertising revenue to support a serious professional tour. We just do not have those kinds of numbers fanatical about the game yet.

But it is really a fun game and there is no reason why it will not continue to grow. It is going to grow whether TDs scam the ams or whether TDs spend the ams money on the ams. Tournaments have almost nothing to do with the growth of the game. Most players don't even know there are tournaments.



Please reread Bruce's post, then read it again. While I often disagree with Bruce, his perception of this sport and where it is and how it should be grown seems excellent to me. He's not living some pipe dream, and instead has a practical, realistic perspective.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that ball golf has been losing numbers over the past few years.


I saw some stats on this recently. Roughly, from about 2000�2006, ball golf "rounds played per year" went from somewhere over 600,000,000 to somewhere under 500,000,000.

I particularly thought it interesting that the same authority considers anyone who plays around 35 rounds a year, or more, to be a hard-core ball golfer and part of a distinct minority. When I asked DGRUS people to complete a survey on this, the average number of disc golf rounds they claimed to be playing in 2008 was between 130-160, with only a handful at or under that 35 number.

It will be a lot less if your boy gets elected...

http://www.dontvoteobama.net/images/No%20Bama.jpg

yes, thanks. very helpful to the conversation.

I'm with Cent on this..... No Bama 08.......

If you are wondering how this fits in here, well we are talking about a skill based cometition are we not.....???




Obama�s Inexperience Tough to Ignore

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:56 AM

By: Ronald Kessler
A close look at Barack Obama's career reveals it has been even more mediocre than generally recognized.

Before being elected to the Illinois state Senate, Obama worked as a community organizer and a lawyer in Chicago.

In his memoir, Obama says being a community organizer taught him how to motivate the powerless and work the government to help them. His chief example is an effort to remove asbestos from Altgeld Gardens, an all-black public housing project on Chicago�s South Side.

But those who were involved in the effort say Obama played a minor role in working the problem and never accomplished his goal. A pre-existing group at Altgeld Gardens and a local newspaper, the Chicago Reporter, were working on the problem before Obama came on the scene, yet Obama does not mention them in his book, �Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.�

�Just because someone writes it, doesn't make it true,� says Altgeld resident Hazel Johnson, who had been pushing for a cleanup of the cancer-producing substance years before Obama showed up.

Rep. Bobby L. Rush, D-Ill., says it was Johnson's work, along with asbestos testing by the Chicago Reporter, that got Chicago officials interested in the issue. Rush, who launched an inquiry into the situation when he was a member of the Chicago City Council, says he is �offended� that Obama did not mention Johnson in his account.

�Was [Obama] involved in stuff? Absolutely,� says Robert Ginsburg, an activist who worked with Johnson and Obama on the problem. �But there was stuff happening before him, and after him.�

After three years working as an organizer, Obama could say he helped obtain grants for a jobs program and got asbestos removed from some pipes in the project. But as the Los Angeles Times has noted, the �large-scale change that was needed at the 1,998-unit project was beyond his reach.� To this day, most of the asbestos remains in the apartments.

Fruitless though his efforts were, Obama devoted more than 100 pages to his experiences at Altgeld Gardens and surrounding areas. Michelle Obama has said his work as a community organizer helped him decide �how he would impact the world,� assisting people to improve their lives. Yet, in a revealing passage in his book, Obama wrote, �When classmates in college asked me just what it was that a community organizer did, I couldn�t answer them directly.�

Instead, he said, �I�d pronounce on the need for change. Change in the White House, where Reagan and his minions were carrying on their dirty deeds. Change in the congress, compliant and corrupt. Change in the mood of the country, manic and self-absorbed. Change won�t come from the top, I would say. Change will come from a mobilized grass roots.�

Thus, Obama admitted that he accomplished little but that he was able to cover that up with fancy talk about change.

After going to Harvard Law School, Obama returned to Chicago, where he briefly headed a voter registration drive and then became a lawyer. While Obama�s campaign has touted him as a civil rights lawyer, �Over the nine years that Obama�s law license was active in Illinois, he never handled a trial and mostly worked in teams of lawyers who drew up briefs and contracts in a variety of cases,� according to David Mendell�s �Obama: From Promise To Power.�

A review of the cases Obama worked on during his brief legal career �shows he played the strong, silent type in court, introducing himself and his client, then stepping aside to let other lawyers do the talking,� the Chicago Sun-Times has reported.

�A search of all the cases in Cook County Circuit Court in which Obama made an appearance since he graduated from Harvard in 1991 shows: zero,� the article said.

Instead, his practice was �confined mainly to federal court in Chicago, where he made formal appearances in only five district court cases and another five in cases before the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals � a total of 10 cases in his legal career,� the paper said.

If Obama had virtually no impact as either a community organizer or as a lawyer, he was even more invisible in the state Senate and later in the U.S. Senate.

In both bodies, Obama had a reputation for voting �present,� thus avoiding controversial decisions that could be used against him later. In the U.S. Senate, he has missed more than one in five votes.

Only one of the measures Obama has sponsored as a U.S. senator was enacted: a bill to �promote relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of Congo.�

Contrary to Obama�s portrayal of himself as a unifier, on every bipartisan effort in the Senate to forge compromises on tough issues, Obama has been missing in action.

In sum, it would be difficult to imagine a more mediocre record. Most candidates for dog catcher have contributed more to society. Yet with the help of adoring reporters, Obama has managed to parlay extraordinary speaking and political skills into a presidential campaign built on sand.

The idea that America might entrust its security and future to someone who has never demonstrated an ability to get anything of significance done is scary.

Look for John McCain to begin exploiting this vulnerability after Labor Day.

Obama�s Inexperience Tough to Ignore

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:56 AM

By: Ronald Kessler





Yep, that conservative bastion of truth, Ronald Kessler...

Newsmax's Kessler Scrubs Reference To His Obama Factual Blunder From His Wiki Page (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/newsmaxs_kessler_scrubs_refere.php)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/17/politics/main2369157.shtml

What does any of this last crap have to do with the discussion of whether there should be an amateur disc golf organization?

Take it to Miscellaneous.

Terry has interjected that, um, stuff, into every thread he posts on by adopting a pro-Obama screen name, just so you understand. It is the latest thing among the ultra-libs to present their name as First Hussein Last as a way of showing support for their man. I'm pretty sure the original poster who veered off in this direction was reacting to Terry's new screen name.

i agree its like the secret messages in the store music ploy....

Since I jumped on the same band wagon(No Bama) I will apologize....(No Bama)
I agree it does not belong here (No Bama)
It will not happen again (No Bama)

i agree its like the secret messages in the store music ploy....

Since I jumped on the same band wagon(No Bama) I will apologize....(No Bama)
I agree it does not belong here (No Bama)
It will not happen again (No Bama)



Kinda like the scene in Blazing Saddles where the lookout is yelling:

The new sheriff is a (DING DONG).
No, I said the sheriff is a (DING DONG).
I told you...the sheriff is a (DING DONG).

...
Yeah, I'm sure all you upstanding and tolerant citizens wouldn't want to have a (DING DONG) in the White House.

Not after the last 8 years of a real ding dong.
January 20, 2009: the end of an error.

Back to the real topic here....Why no amateur association is needed:

We are all proffesionals here in the PDGA no Ams, just some of us play in the low, low divisions and get paid a different way.

But that needs to change.

Don't worry if you don't have the experience needed to play in the biggest most glamorized events in the world...

You have what it takes and you can do it...

Just believe in yourself and things will change, because thats what we need is change, right, forget about actually having all the abilities and skills, change is gonna come and you will win...

Wasn't there an RDGA or something?

The DGA and the RDGA are basically Steady Ed's company
which is called the DGA..... He also founded the IFA and the PDGA which he gave to us in 1984. But to my knowledge you cannot join the RDGA or DGA like we can the PDGA

The RDGA was a $10 lifetime membership bought thru DGA. Not sure if they still do that now that Ed is gone.

has there ever been any serious consideration of a semi pro division?

First let me say this may be the first time in my life I've actually read through 16 pages of forum posts before making a reply. If it sounds like rampling it is only because I'm trying to comment on 47 posts at one time.

Personally I think the PDGA pro/am system is just fine. I think some refinements are in order, but no wholesale changes. I'd like to see the divisional breaks moved down. In my humble opinion it appears the breaks were done based on the number of members in the database at certain levels and not according to real world fairness. I think Novice should be reduced to &lt; 825, Rec &lt; 875, Int &lt; 925. At an average 10 points per missed putt this would even it out to 5 putts per round between the divisions but I feel the lowering of the division caps would take away your fringe baggers.

Speaking of baggers: Hi my name is Lee and I'm a bagger...not really. Double weighting of most current rounds goes a step toward fairness but not close enough. Before the last update I was rated 843. I went to the Lexington Open and played Rec. I could have played Novice but 'Bagged Up' because I felt that was where I belonged. I was wrong. I shot four horrible rounds. The kind where you seem to be having a bad out of body experience and you tell yourself that only an idiot would throw that shot from that lie. I mean, I don't care what the scorecard said..I shot four horrible rounds. At the end of day two I had to do a playoff for the 1st place. I decided I wanted to win.. thru a Buzz 330 feet on a safari hole and nailed a 60ft jump putt to seal the win. I shot a 868, 896, 890, and 888 rated rounds and won. You may say those are well below the expected ratings of the winner in an A-tier for Rec since someone should have had a 'lights out day' to win. But it was little ole me shooting 4 horrible rounds...then I knew it was time to move up.

Fast forward to the Kentucky States Championship B-Tier at Idlewild. Post ratings update I was still sitting at an 856 rating. I could play Rec if I wanted to but I would be booed from the stage if I even attempted that due to the high voltage of the local peer pressure. I played Intermediate eventhough my brain told me to play Advanced. My HOME course is Idlewild. I shoot 65 shorts and 75 longs on a daily basis. In a tournament with insane OBs I shoot a 69s and 75L. I win Intermediate by 10 strokes. I could have 'Bagged Down' to my rating and won by 20 strokes in a 2 round event. I would have cashed #5 in Advanced.

This shows a glaring weakness in both rating break points and especially the way ratings are accrued for newer players. I've been playing...aka..from the day I picked up a disc and said, "what is this"...to this moment....1 year, 2 months and a few days. My last ratings had me at an 856 golfer with 61 rated rounds. 61? Isn't that a tad much? I mean those 797 rated rounds last year when I was learning to throw and chew bubble gum at the same time have very little bearing on the state of my game at present. I'm not saying I'm the 950 rated player that my rounds at my home course suggest...but I'm much higher than the 856 my rating suggest.

There are MANY players from outside the Cincy area that you must hold a gun to their heads to get them to play up a division...even when they are a mere one point below the cut off line. Here, you might not even get acknowledged as a winner of your division if you are bagging. "yea, I could have taking that trophy too if I bagged down like a little noodle arm pansy like you"..doesn't matter what the division you bagged down too..you are rightfully heckled if you play in a lower division than your current game shows.

So, I'm taking my 856 rated butt to Pike Lake next in Bainbridge, OH and plan on winning Advanced. Do I care if I win a stack of discs? No. Do I feel I deserve a stack of discs? No. Do I want a small trophy? Yes. Do I want the respect of my friends? Maybe. Do I want to hold it over their heads that I as a lowly 856 rated player beat the winnie the pooh out of them? Yep :cool:

Your experience merely indicates that you're playing disc golf somewhere where no one has caught on to the fact that the PDGA uses ratings to define divisions. I guarantee you that if you bring your 865 rating up to Chicago this weekend, or Rockford in September, you'll get your butt handed to you in any division except Rec.

Here's some numbers:

Brandenburg # 17: 6 of 37
Charlie Vettiner: 11 of 65
Brent Hambrick: 27 of 84

These are the number of amateurs playing in the division indicated by their rating out of all of the amateurs playing in ratings defined divisions.

There's nothing wrong with the ratings breaks. Maybe there's something wrong with the public education system when only 25% of your players can figure out what division they belong in.

So, I'm taking my 856 rated butt to Pike Lake next in Bainbridge, OH and plan on winning Advanced. Do I care if I win a stack of discs? No. Do I feel I deserve a stack of discs? No. Do I want a small trophy? Yes. Do I want the respect of my friends? Maybe. Do I want to hold it over their heads that I as a lowly 856 rated player beat the winnie the pooh out of them? Yep :cool:



Bring that 856 game to Pike Lake and see whats up... I would bet money you don't come out the victor :eek:

Heck I would even bet against a top 5 finish ;)

Craig...I don't see you signed up yet :) Bring your 919 to the woods of Pike Lake and let's see you beat me. The turn over shot I'm going to park #12 with will make your lower jaw drop to your knees when you see it.

oh man, pike lake trash talk. im in!

i shot a 48 on tuesday. my first time there!
how do you like that craig??

by the way bruce, i can agree with you a bit about people playing in divisions where they dont belong, but i also know that it took a bit for my rating to catch up to where i should play, and its only a 935 now. so i only have to play advanced by one point, but i think if one round would have been lower and i would be 934, i still shouldnt be playing am2.

Oh I'm signed up... No turnover needed on hole 12. I have just the forehand for it ;)

I never said I would beat you, I just guarantee it won't be a W for you :p

See you Saturday! Zac should be the favorite in AM1, weak arm and good aim... perfect for Pike Lake! :D

Craig, I was out there last night and today. I thought I could throw a turn over on 12...I was wrong...so I'll just shoot the forehand. Yep, I may be in some serious trouble. Holes 1,2, 4 and 6 ate me up. After that I had some nice deuces but I hit more trees than a woodpecker today. I shot +5 my warm up round after going 4,4,4,6,4,6 on the first 6 holes...then battled back with a nice string of deuces. My second round I only shot a -1...but it took an ace on #15 to do that. I couldn't putt to save my life. Hopefully come saturday I'll be able to hit my lines and putt or I'll get embarrassed.

Either way...I'll have fun at Pike Lake.

thats the thing about that course,... either way youll have a good time.

Darts?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jan/04/taylor-van-barneveld-final

Why no amateur association is needed

because the PDGA largely *is* an amateur association with the added perk that those who join get to refer to themselves as members of the *professional* disc golf association.

what's the downside? a watering down of what it means to be a pro in disc golf and also a scattered focus at best when it comes to advancing the professional disc golf agenda of the organization...

I haven't looked back to see if this was covered, but here's my recollection of where the PDGA name came from...

The name "Professional" Disc Golf Association came about because the name "Disc Golf Association" was already taken by Ed's company. The PDGA started out as an off-shoot of Steady Ed's business - DGA. He took the money, sent out the membership packages (I received two discs with my # on them - unweighted Wham-O 40 and 50 molds). At that time pretty much all disc competitions were "professional," i.e., you paid an entry fee and the entry fee was divided up amongst the top finishers. Pretty much like a lot of weekly doubles leagues. It was expected that anyone interested enough to play in a tournament and pay to be in the club was playing for cash, hence they were "professional." Ed didn't want to give up the name of his company - DGA would have made more sense for a group that would eventually include both "professional" and amateur players, but it was his company name to do with as he wished. When he "turned over the PDGA to the players" he did so with an expectation that there would be amateur players included, but that most of the efforts of the PDGA would go towards supporting pro tournaments.

Several years after he sent the PDGA off to be run by the players Ed (I think) started up another group called the Recreational Disc Golf Association (RDGA). This group was intended for players who were not interested in playing events against top-level players, but who still wanted some competition and structure to the game. DGA even marketed discs stamped as "RDGA-approved" which were all 150-class. I don't know how long the RDGA operated (or if it's still around in any fashion) but it's obviously not a major force in the sport.

I think the PDGA name has stuck mostly because of inertia - it would take a lot of effort, derail a lot of publicity and cause a lot of confusion if this mostly amateur group decided to change it's name. And if all of the amateur member dues and tournament fees weren't in the kitty to run things for the pros, do you think there'd still be a "Pro Tour?" Hardly.