I will be in Kansas City on a business trip this wed-fri. I'd highly consider blowing off a meeting or going in late if I knew there was a course in the area that was a monster which is considered a MUST play. I like lots of woods and lots of elevation! Is there anything like this in the greater KC area?

Blue Valley. Awesome. Bring your glucosamine. It's 12,000 feet.

Blue Valley is comparable in elevation to some ski resort courses, but the play is decidedly up hill, down hill, up hill, downhill. It is a very fun grand course.

Except for being home for a week around Thanksgiving, I am working in Wichita, KS until Christmas. I am planning on making a trip up to Kansas City one weekend to play Blue Valley and Waterworks which is also a must-play I am told.

I would play Waterworks HANDS DOWN!

I may have to skip a few meetings! I'm digging the info I've found on Waterworks, Rosedale, Swope, and Blue Valley. From the playdg.com pix, WW will be my MUST play. I'll get that one in!

What time is it dark round KC this time of year? We're almost pitch black at 5:10 on the Lake Michigan shores of WI. I imagine if you're on CST, it may still be light at 6pm that far west.

It's too dark to play by 5 PM this time of year no matter what time zone you're in.

Not correct dood!

KC is 11hrs SOUTHWEST of Green Bay, WI, BUT in the SAME time zone. Seeing how the sun sets in the west, there is some rule of thumb that for every 90 miles west along the same latitude, you gain 9 minutes of sunlight before sunset. It must also come into play given southern movement along the same longitude as well (because the sun traverses closer to the equator (ie further south) as winter solstice approaches), but I don't know that rule of thumb.

I know this because deer hunting time zones are based on sunrise and sunset. In WI the state is split into 6 columns, each starting and ending 9 minutes apart because of the physical east-west distance and available sunlight.

When you get here on Wednesday, go out to the course at 5 PM and see how well you can play.

Hint: bring your glowsticks. :D

Make sure you stick around at swope for some late night extra curriculars :D

Looks like 5:08pm for sunset today:
www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/sunrise.html (http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/sunrise.html)

Thanks for confirming chuck.

Apparent sunset for KC, MO - 5:08! That means I'll still have decent light until at least 5:38.

Chicago, IL apparenet sunset is 4:34, as is here in GB at a simialr longitude. And we have pitch dark conditions by 5:10.

Exactly my point. Further west = more sunlight at a given time in the same tiem zone. I'll take off at 3 and enjoy decent light until 530 - no glow required! I don't know how you guys do that in PA? Maybe you're down in some deep hole or something and you lose light by 3pm.

Here in Wichita today, about 2 1/2 hours SW of Kansas city, it was getting dark at 5:10 and pitch black by 5:30.

Seriously?! Man, that blows! I guess I'll be hoping for some cloudless nights so I can take advantage of every last ray of sun. I may blow off my friday morning meeting before the flight and get up at the crack of dawn for a few rounds.

Waterworks is an awesome course! Definitely a "must play".

so i keep hearing great things, and the mccabe article resparked my interest in the water works course in KC.

so dgcoursereview only has a couple images of this place, any of you KC folk have more images you could put on there, or share with the rest of us who havent had the privilege of playing it.

thanks

From PlayDg.com........

http://playdg.com/courses/?s=IA&c=waterworksia

Steve

Post deleted by J_A_B

http://playdg.com/courses/?s=MO&c=waterworks

This should do it....if not the site is Playdg.com

I am playing the WW course for the first time this weekend and am totally stoked!!! :cool:

you should drop by Down Under Dubs at 12:30 on saturday, rosedale down under.

$10 and there will (probably) be a ton of locals there. lots of $$$ at stake! last week we had 40 people.

Thanks for the invite, rocguy, but I'm on a mission to play the world class & must-play courses in Kansas City. I will probably only have time to play Blue Valley and Waterworks because I'm stopping in Emporia along the way to KC from Wichita.

Plus I don't know if I'm coming up on Saturday or Sunday.

Stopped in Emporia to play Jones Park. I love that you can see the chains from the highway! The wind was absolutely bonkers when I got to the course, so much so that I couldn't even play and I ended up just walking the course. Maybe Kansas people are used to conditions like that, but being from Pennsylvania, I am definitely not. 30+ mph sustained winds that are difficult just to walk against are just not my idea of a good time and results in silly golf that doesn't do anything for me. I don't know if I was at the east or west course but hole#1 started off with a forced carry over OB high grass that was impossible with the wind. Hole#2 was a good pro par 4, and I loved how the water came into play on holes#3-5. Hole#6 was another pro par four and probably the best designed hole on the course, imo. It shoots downhill and then through a "keyhole" in a treeline to a protected basket. With a favorable tailwind, I actually threw hole#10 and parked it for deuce, woo-hoo! Hole#14, a pro par 4, just seemed long for the sake of long and I didn't like how it played through a shelter and picnic facilities. Hole#17 must be hard because it is one of the few wooded holes on the course, and there is OB high grass left and a parking lot right. Hole#18 basically encourages a righty-hyzer over the parking lot which is a big no-no in course design. I would be really steamed if I played this course regularly and some damage occurred to my car because of this, or worse yet, someone got hurt.

I love how the course is advertised as "Many trees add challenge" because there are about 30 of them which really come into play, and half of them are on hole#17! I think the course designers did the best they could with what was available to them, but if this is their idea of a wooded course, I would hate to see an open one. Still, with concrete tee pads and really nice tee signs, I'd love to play these courses in better conditions and will try to do so on my way back to Wichita if the wind is more favorable.

After that, I went straight to Blue Valley. The winds weren't as sustained as earlier in the day and I at least got to play the course, but there were still some ridiculous gusts that made a few holes silly to play.

With the huge elevation changes, wind, and views to die for, this course reminded very much of Brandywine in Wilmington, DE. The concrete tees at Blue Valley are the biggest I've ever seen, and I love how some of them were poured to represent the layout of the hole! The headwind on hole#2 was outrageous; I'd love to be able to throw this one on a calm day. The hike up to hole#4 is exhausting but it's worth it - this is such an amazing hole and probably my favorite on the course. I love the options on this hole - you can try the wide right route or play the narrow path on the left. I tried two rollers and got to within putting range but doinked it. I was glad the pin was short on #6 because the long pin looks like an absolute beast to play. For a right-handed thrower, does disc golf get any more fun than hole#7? A 600+ ft. pro par four with some 50 ft. of elevation drop. On hole#8, I threw an absolute bomb (for me) that skipped off the road and ended up just short of the last big tree before the pin, and gave me an easy upshot for a 3 - probably my highlight of the round. The wind was absolutely bonkers on the tee of #11, and I actually had an overstable disc flip over into a roller and end up on the hillside below #10's tee - it was that bad. I love the green location on hole#11, but it seems like drives that are just a bit too far left would leave a very awkward shot through (or over) a wall of trees. Hole#12 and 13 were probably my least favorite on the course - they just seemed long for the sake of long, and boring. With the exception of one big tree in the middle, hole#16 seemed to play almost identically to #12, and even a birdie 3 here did little to excite me. With the 17th and 18th hole right next to a busy 23rd Street, I like the prominent exposure that disc golf gets here but even in the short pin positions they were a grind to finish the course with.

There is no doubt that with many pro par four and pro par five holes, this course offers a world class challenge like few others in the disc golf spectrum, and it will definitely be a supreme test of disc golf skills for competitors in Pro/Am Worlds 2009. I am definitely glad I played the course and enjoyed it immensely in spurts. I had par at 66 and shot 71 in high winds so I can't complain. But again, while the course designers did the best they could with the land available, I think the front nine is far superior to the back because of the trees available to serve as hazards there. Most of the back nine just seems like one wide open shot after another that only golfers with 500-ft. arms can overpower. As compared to say, an Idlewild (Kentucky) which plays as a true pro par 72 through heavy woods that is a great equalizer and does not allow big arms to just bomb every hole. I dunno, maybe if I played the course in the summer and with much less wind, it might play a little differently, but like Jones Park, the course just seemed a little too open for my tastes. I'm hoping Waterworks offers a little more woodsy terrain and better balance. :cool:

all those crazy headwind holes at BV ALWAYS play into a headwind. the wind comes out of the south for this course in a strong fashion.

i have probably played 25 rounds there and I haven't ever gotten to throw #2 without it being into at least a 20 mph headwind. same story with #11 and #13.

Getting back to the focus of the thread, I played WaterWorks this morning. I wanted to get out there early before the artic blast moved in, and at 8 AM it was over 60 degrees! Of course there was still some strong winds but nothing like the previous day. To briefly summarize the course, the course may be one of the greatest par 3 courses ever - it's just so much FUN to play. With its old growth trees, the course kind of reminded me of Sedgley Woods in Philadelphia but with about a bazillion times more elevation change. I don't know what the rest of the courses are like, but people coming to Kansas City for Pro/Am Worlds 2009 and expecting Midwest flat terrain are going to have their minds blown by Blue Valley and WaterWorks - they are simply two courses with some of the most extreme elevation changes I've ever seen!

Does disc golf get any better than hole#1 with the views of the KC skyline? It was in the C pin position, and I threw a safe drive off to the left which I think is how to attack this position. I threw some extra drives and ended up losing a cherished Sugarbush Pro Destroyer signed by Markus Kallstrom in the leaves. :( If anyone finds it, please lemme know. What's up with Terrapin Station on hole#4? As a lifelong Deadhead I'd love to hear the story behind that one. :) Loved the woods on holes 4 through 6 - finally some holes that challenge one's accuracy game. 8 was a real hoot, especially since the pin was in the longest C position way up the opposite hillside. Is there a mando on hole#12 to prevent one from throwing over the entrance road to the C pin? If not, there should be, but I really did love this "hogback" green. 13 is a fun "over the valley" shot. Hole#14 is a perfect "driving range" hole, as it's slightly downhill and relatively wide open and with sweet views of the skyline again. This hole was in the 'B' but I could only manage a drive to the A. The 'C' pin with the OB road behind it is pure evil, and the same could be said for the far right position on hole#16 - I was just glad the pin was in the middle. I finished the course with a deuce on 17 and a routine par on 18.

I enjoyed the course design here, because as opposed to every other course I've played in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri, there was actually some woods holes and accuracy testers instead of just predominantly wide open bombers. The multiple pin positions on every hole also provide for great variety - Morley Field in San Diego is the only course I can think of with more pin locations. If there's one drawback to the WaterWorks course however, it's that every hole is a par 3. While the course is far from "pitch-n-putt," depending on pin position, every hole is either a deuceable par 3, tough par 3, or a par 3.5 where you are enthused to save your 3 but a 4 still feels likes a bogey. And unfortunately, I don't think there's any room to make for any pro par four holes on the course. Also, to a lesser degree I think the course shares the same safety hazards that Sedgley does where an errant drive could easily land on the tee of another hole. While I had the course all to myself on a Sunday morning in December, I can only imagine what the course is like when filled to the brim with novice golfers on a nice Saturday afternoon in June or July.

if you havent, you should review courses on dgcourse review, you perspective seems fair and honest and its nice to get good reviews of courses on there all in one place instead of searching these forums. at least these few courses that you spoke about.

Click on my profile for the link to my disc golf course review web page. :cool:

perfect

Hole #6 in Jones east is a badd mother of a hole. You should watch Eric McCabe pimp his driver all the way through the "key hole" and park it for a deuce (in both positions).

Hole #14 at Water Works is an awesome hole, and was in the position by the road at KCWO last year, I would guess it might be there for World's too?

Peter Pan Park review (http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=894902&page=0&vc=1#Post8 94902)

we got 3 or 4 days in KC. what are the best courses? thanks

we got 3 or 4 days in KC. what are the best courses? thanks

Waterworks

After playing worlds their last summer...Discette is 100% correct, WaterWorks was the best I played!

Wyandotte Co. was also a nice course
Blue Valley was pretty good as well: very long course
Cliffdrive looked pretty cool, but I didn't get to play it.
Heard Rosedale down under was good: I only played Rosedale, not DU.
Shawnee Mission was a fun course to play, mainly because of the cut fairways.
Don't remember much about Prairie Center as it was a down pour during it...would like to give it another chance if I am ever up that way again.

My company has a plant in Kansas, and after many trips out there over the last two years and playing disc golf courses in the K.C. region, here's my input:

Top Tier (must-play courses):

Water Works - Plays through scattered old growth trees over some of the sickest elevation changes of any non-ski area course. Hole#1 may be the greatest opening hole at any disc golf course, anywhere. There are nice views of downtown on much of the course. The only drawback to this course is that all holes are par 3s - no pro par four or pro par five golf here - but this is still the gold star of all courses in the region, and if I had to play just one, this would be it.

Cliff Drive (Kessler Park) - The front nine on this course is simply spectacular - playing literally along cliffs and downhill through tight woods where finesse is at a premium. The back nine is almost entirely open and you'll need a big arm to score well on the back, especially if it's windy.

Blue Valley - World class par 66 challenge; many pro par four holes which play over huge elevation changes and against often insane winds. Front nine is more technical than the back nine which is almost completely open. You'll enjoy this course most if it's neither a hot nor windy day and you have a gorilla arm and want to play 600-800 foot holes.

Thornfield - Very nice private course with several pro par fours, but I don't know its availability these days.

Next Tier (very good courses):

Swope - A very nice visually appealing course with mature tree lined fairways over gentle elevation changes. Most holes play as fun "valley-to-valley" shots but can get a little repetitive.

Wyandotte County Park (WyCo): I think this course is very underrated. While the WyCo course doesn't have the tight woods of some other courses like Thornfield or RDU, nor the insane elevation changes of many of the Missouri courses like Waterworks, Blue Valley and Cliff Drive, it has extremely nice teepads and tee signs, large mature trees, enough rolling elevation changes to make things interesting, multiple pin positions on each hole including many which make for challenging pro par four holes, and a visual appeal that just makes it look like a high quality professional disc golf course. It's not a top tier course out of the 200 I've played over the last 15 years, but it's darn close!

As advertised, this is a mostly open course with just enough large mature trees to keep drives honest. Holes #1 and 2 play through a row of evenly spaced mature trees that form a tunnel and are just exciting to throw. Hole#4 is a 480' pro par four which plays straight ahead about 300 feet next to a tree line; after that, the hole doglegs 90 degrees through a hole in the woods to a polehole placed on the hillside below the entrance road. Placement on the drive is really the key here. Hole#13 is a wide open 666' field shot which would be an extremely straightforward and unexciting hole if not for the USDGC-like rope surrounding THE ENTIRE hole. The further one goes on the drive, the rope pinches ever more narrow from the tee until it almost reaches an apex. Big arms are definitely at a disadvantage here and will need to lay up to avoid the landing area at its narrowest. From there, competitors have a choice of throwing a left-to-right shot (as the hole doglegs about 45 degrees to the right) or an approach which carries almost entirely over OB to the polehole. A saving grace is that left of the basket is a high-banked wall leading up to the road to catch shots which come in too hot. You definitely do not want to bite off more than you can chew and go OB which will result in stroke and distance back to the OB line, where you are then looking at a circle 5 or worse. Kudos to the course designers for taking what would be a boring hole and making it possibly one of the best designed holes on the course. Hole#14 is a 515' downhill pro par four which plays through scattered mature trees, across a pond to the polehole, and is easily the signature hole. One can throw a drive wide right and approach the basket from there, or throw a shortish shot down to the 'A' pin location and then make an approach across the pond. It's not a large pond to carry, but the strategy on how to play this hole is what makes golf such an exciting sport. The course finishes with a 478' downhill bomber which is just a joy to rip, a 618' pro par four hole, and then the picturesque 18th hole which plays down another row of evenly spaced trees.

Wyandotte County Park (WyCo): I think this course is very underrated.

I could see myself playing this course A LOT if I lived up there.

http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=2417.0

Read the local thread, we got a new course as well, Blue Springs, and it ver a good wooded technical course. Be sure to Visit Oklahoma Joes while you are here, go the one by Rosedale, its in the back of a gas station, you will not be disappointed.

We have leagues every night of the week, some nights have 3 places to play, generally $6-$8 to play a round, they all start by 6, be registered by 5:30.

Great places to play in KC, we are spoiled for sure.

http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=2417.0

Read the local thread, we got a new course as well, Blue Springs, and it ver a good wooded technical course. Be sure to Visit Oklahoma Joes while you are here, go the one by Rosedale, its in the back of a gas station, you will not be disappointed.

We have leagues every night of the week, some nights have 3 places to play, generally $6-$8 to play a round, they all start by 6, be registered by 5:30.

Great places to play in KC, we are spoiled for sure.

Go to Joes, just don't go exactly at Noon. Go at 11 or 1:30 as the place gets crazy busy ... its worth it though!

OK Joe's was a good suggestion. Loved the pulled pork and beef tips! If I am ever back in KC I will go back to that place!