That's according to CWojPutt. (Chris Wojciechowski #27965)

So as not to further derail the Groove thread, I am bringing the discussion from that thread to a new one. Here's what he has to say:


If you want to call yourself solid, if you want to say you're consistent at release then your rating has to be 990+. You can't be a 950nothing golfer, barely good enough to finish top 3 in Advanced, and say your game is all that consistent.

Its the archer not the arrow.

-Chris.




But the fact is: if you're not consistent enough to throw good enough drives to play 995+ rated golf on a consistent basis, you're not good enough to give a proper review of the consistency of a disc.



So basically, according to Chris, 99% of all PDGA members are not qualified to give reviews of discs. (Including Chris, a 977 rated golfer)

What do you think of this assertion?

HILARIOUS!!!!! someone should learn the filter through the coal and find the diamond as opposed to talking about how big the pile of coal is. sounds like a grumpy fellow.

#1 - there's a reason for a power rating in disc flight charts. some discs are better for big arms, some are better for weaker arms. 990+ rated disc golfers don't have weak arms. they just don't. generalizing and saying that anyone rated below a certain number should not test discs is crazy.

#2 - everyone has a reason for the rating they're sitting at. to determine a player's skill solely upon rating is just not smart. lots of players are playing injured. some players just fold at tournaments, kinda like some people suck at taking tests. others are poor putters. there are lots of reasons not to trust a rating. C Woj doesn't recognize any of those reasons, which we all know is ignorance. i guess that makes his opinion useless.

turning [ignore] on

The guy says he isn't good, tells me I suck, says a majority of the PDGA members can't review a disc, proceeds tells other people how they "should" be throwing, and then says my argument is bad? Boy did he get worked up :eek:
All I was getting at was it was weak to call someone out for a rating. Please keep posting, my Monday will go by quick.

im only rated 921 but can throw farther than many rated much higher. sometimes i just cant hit the line i want to,ok most the time,however a lower rated player may still exibit adequate power and snap to throw the latest plastic at its designed speed.

If that's the way he feels, then that's the way he feels. I'm not using his discs and I'm not using his money to buy discs. He can feel however he wants about what a good review is because it's not going to affect my game.

I listen to all player's reviews and try to get a general idea of what people are experiencing with a particular disc.

Don't let him get to you ;) Just get out there and throw.

Some of the best teachers are not that great of players themselves, they just know good technique and are good at spotting flaws in others throws. basically you don't have to be better then your student to give effective advice on form, etc.

Along the same lines, I think some of the best reviewers would be people who can best put into words how a disc flies. IF you are highly rated though I think you have a higher probability of giving a good review. I would like a thread titled something like: "Pros review discs" and limit it to 1000 rated players.

You guys need to relax about Woj, he just likes to stir the pot.

"But the fact is: if you're not consistent enough to throw good enough drives to play 995+ rated golf on a consistent basis, you're not good enough to give a proper review of the consistency of a disc."
--Chris W. from Groove thread

First of all I'm not all about nailing someone against a wall because they went a little too far with the hyperbole, and in my time here Chris W. has always seemed like a nice guy.

Many beliefs I've held in the past about DG have either been wrong or too simplistic as I have come to see with time. I don't know how many times I have thought I was just 1 thing away from being rated 1000, whether it was putting, a disc, a shot, consistency (as if it is actually a quantifiable thing we can even talk about), coolness under pressure, etc. I've played, practiced, taken advice from the best, improved every single facet of my skill set, and I'm still rated in the 960s. That being said, a casual golfer playing a casual round with Ken Climo and I would be hard pressed to tell you who was the better player. We can both throw 400'+ with accuracy and consistency, we both can hit "the perfect line" on any hole at our home course, and we are both used to hitting some metal from the tee in any given round. We are also both going to lose concentration at some point and dink a putt or shank a drive. The 70-80 point difference in our ratings has very little to do with our skills and everything to do with what happens the second the horn blows and Ken turns into "The Champ" and I turn into God knows what and struggle to execute things I've known how to do with my eyes closed for years. This has nothing to do with my ability to throw a disc and write a review.

I suspect Chris, like me at that point in my development, believes he is one or two things away from becoming a "superpro" and is romanticising what those guys have and he does not. I doubt he has played a lot of rounds with guys of that caliber and has an oversimplified view of what a great player is. He obviously does not really think he sucks (or why would he be so quick to "help" those he plays with and be so quick to give advice and tell people what they are doing is wrong if he believed he sucked). C'mon Chris, you can't play it both ways.

Anyway, I don't want this to become negative as it has already. Chris, you're wrong. A rating is one arbitrary number and is not enough to give creedance to an opinion or take it away. It is based on scoring, not throwing. Throwing a disc with perfect technique does not necessarily score, and not scoring well does not mean that you can't throw. It is worthwhile to question the source of any information, especially disc reviews, but there is not a sure fire, single way to determine whether the review is useful to you or not.

One last point...Ask Dave D. how many of the people he goes to the field to test new Innova discs with are rated 995+.

Don't let him get to you ;)




You guys need to relax about Woj, he just likes to stir the pot.



Don't get me wrong - I couldn't care less, and outlandish statements from him are not going to stop me or anyone else from posting disc reviews in this forum.

But, if he's going to make these ridiculous statements, then I'm going to call him out on it and encourage others to do so. Perhaps if he hears it from multiple other sources (and not just me) he'll rethink his stance. I think we all can agree that it doesn't take a player rating of 990, let alone 900, for someone to give adequate reviews of disc flight patterns or disc consistency, even though our technique may fall short of perfection. :D

I could really care less about this, but I'd just likr to point out Dave Dunipace's rating.

966

One last point...Ask Dave D. how many of the people he goes to the field to test new Innova discs with are rated 995+.



That may be true, but 99% of the people Dave D. is selling discs to are below 995 in rating. In fact, 99% of the people he's selling to can't throw a putter 250', so reviews from mid to lower level players often give a good gage of how discs fly for the overall discing population.

i think the bottom line is that basically he negates everything he says by claiming that the only people allowed to speak with validity are those that are above a plateau that he hasnt reached yet. you cant say, 'everyone, OH.. except me..., under 990 isnt worth listening to.

So, basically theres only about 200 ppl on the face of the planet that are qualified to give proper reviews in discs consistency? Thats what ur saying Cwoj, isnt it?
Thats about the dumbest thing ive ever heard of buddy.
Its acually making laugh at loud at work.
we should stop this thread. Anything anybody says is garbage, unless of course, ur ratings over 995.

I honestly have to say thats one of the most ridiculus comments i have ever come across.....

[quote a casual golfer playing a casual round with Ken Climo and I would be hard pressed to tell you who was the better player.

[/QUOTE]

That took my Monday out of the "I don't like Mondays" mode. :D

Anyway, I ask every player from the full range of skill levels how their new disc is working for them and what kind of throws they are doing with them. Knowing a player's ability level gives you a ton of info on a disc by what they tell you.

One last point...Ask Dave D. how many of the people he goes to the field to test new Innova discs with are rated 995+.



That may be true, but 99% of the people Dave D. is selling discs to are below 995 in rating. In fact, 99% of the people he's selling to can't throw a putter 250', so reviews from mid to lower level players often give a good gage of how discs fly for the overall discing population.



My whole point in making that statement is that I KNOW that Dave D. and most of his testing buddies ARE NOT rated 995+, and they are to credit for the discs we all throw. I would consider those guys experts personally, whatever their ratings are.

One last point...Ask Dave D. how many of the people he goes to the field to test new Innova discs with are rated 995+.



That may be true, but 99% of the people Dave D. is selling discs to are below 995 in rating. In fact, 99% of the people he's selling to can't throw a putter 250', so reviews from mid to lower level players often give a good gage of how discs fly for the overall discing population.



My whole point in making that statement is that I KNOW that Dave D. and most of his testing buddies ARE NOT rated 995+, and they are to credit for the discs we all throw. I would consider those guys experts personally, whatever their ratings are.



Sorry, I misread your post.

I guess the point is that high ratings have nothing to do with good form, which translates to how discs should fly. I have pretty good mechanics, but a lousy mental game. The latter of the two is more responsible for my rating more than the former.

A rating just shows that you have mastered or havent mastered putting, accurate drives and approaches, and a focused mental game. Since when does a rating indicate that you dont know how a disc should fly?? Sorry, but I'm in the philosophy that it's what you can get the disc to do for you, not what the disc is supposed to do. And for some who cant throw Bosses, XCal's, and Destroyers 450-500+ maybe they can still use them for wind penetrating hyzers.

Almost nobody here actually read my post did they?

Congratulations guys *golf clap*

My entire point, through my whole post, which I made repeatedly for your benefits is: not one of us is consistent enough to properly review the consistency of a disc.

I never said that none of us knows how to throw. I never said that none of us is good enough to give a lesson on how to throw. I never said that none of us has the consistency to throw the perfect shot.


So basically, according to Chris, 99% of all PDGA members are not qualified to give reviews of discs.


Of their consistency, feel free to give reviews of how stable it is for someone with your arm speed. How the penetration through the air is. Etc.


generalizing and saying that anyone rated below a certain number should not test discs is crazy.


Never said that.


The guy says he isn't good, tells me I suck, says a majority of the PDGA members can't review a disc, proceeds tells other people how they "should" be throwing, and then says my argument is bad?


I suck and you suck, and virtually all of us suck because we lack consistency. Not because we don't know what to do, but because we're not consistent enough to do it on a throw-after-throw basis.


im only rated 921 but can throw farther than many rated much higher. sometimes i just cant hit the line i want to,


I appreciate you being one of the few to agree with me. [sarcasm]


Some of the best teachers are not that great of players themselves, they just know good technique and are good at spotting flaws in others throws. basically you don't have to be better then your student to give effective advice on form, etc.


I agree with you completely, Scott.


You guys need to relax about Woj, he just likes to stir the pot.


Makes for an entertaining message board. I know I was getting pretty bored with it :D


Perhaps if he hears it from multiple other sources (and not just me) he'll rethink his stance.


I won't rethink my stance, but I will clarify it for those that didn't actually read my entire post.


i think the bottom line is that basically he negates everything he says by claiming that the only people allowed to speak with validity are those that are above a plateau that he hasnt reached yet. you cant say, 'everyone, OH.. except me..., under 990 isnt worth listening to.


Not concerning consistency of plastic, not even me.


So, basically theres only about 200 ppl on the face of the planet that are qualified to give proper reviews in discs consistency? Thats what ur saying Cwoj, isnt it?


Concerning the consistency of disc runs and how they fly? Pretty much. There are very few people in the world that I consider good at golf right now.



90% of you guys are making my argument into something that it isn't. The one guy backing me up did it by accident. Grand.

There are very few people in the world that I consider good at golf right now.




Just out of curiosity, who is good at golf right now?

There are very few people in the world that I consider good at golf right now.




Just out of curiosity, who is good at golf right now?


Most players with a rating over 990-995 could be said to be good at disc golf. It takes a lot of dedication and work to say you're good at something. I respect players that take a lot of time out of their day to get to a lower level, if they just don't have the physical ability then they don't have it. But I'm blunt about the fact that I don't think they're good at disc golf, I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

I said as much Saturday morning to one of our local golfers out at leagues who has been in the 970s before. After I missed a putt I looked at him and said "If we were any good, we wouldn't miss those." He promptly missed an even closer one and had no choice but to agree. They were putts you DON'T see back to back 1000 rated golfers miss.

I know I'm jumping to putting here, but my point is: Once you step back and look at your game, escape your ego, you'll realize you're really not very good. Whether you can place "yet." on the end of that statement is up to your physical capabilities and your dedication.

They were putts you DON'T see back to back 1000 rated golfers miss.



You should have seen the putts that Feldberg and Shultz missed at last years Memorial(08) on hole 17 of the last round.

I saw alot of missed 10-15 footers at the last 2 BG Pro Open tournaments, and by the big names. They threw them too low and it def. boosted confidence in myself because if they miss those putts and move on then it's okay for me to miss and move on as well.

90% of you guys are making my argument into something that it isn't.



I suggest *you* go back and read your original posts. Among other things, you say
I think most (read: MOST, not all) of the people that have issues with discs flying drastically different simply don't know how to throw



To me, that implies, that if I don't know how to throw, I should not be publishing disc reviews, period. I fail to see any difference between that point, and your supposed main point that
not one of us is consistent enough to properly review the consistency of a disc.

What's the difference?

All you keep doing is hammering on the same "none of us are really good" point, which has nothing to do with the assertions you made before about being qualified to review the consistency of a disc.

With your latest post on putting, it seems to me like you are trying to derail the argument now and avoid addressing the issue. There are many posts in this thread which outline quite well how golfers with ratings well below 1000 still have enough arm speed and consistent enough form to give a proper review of a disc and its consistency. They just may lack a putting game or a mental game to be highly rated.

At this point, you've made zero argument to refute anything you posted earlier. Imo, you've done nothing except dig yourself in deeper.

I think the folks on here who say they "could care less" need to start doing just that. "Care less".

I however, I COULDN'T care less. Meaning my lack of caring could not be increased at all, ever.

I think the folks on here who say they "could care less" need to start doing just that. "Care less".

I however, I COULDN'T care less. Meaning my lack of caring could not be increased at all, ever.




I say anyone below 1010 is horrible and should just stop playing.

That way I won't have to worry about crowded courses. :D


I see what Woj is saying and I normally don't pick an Int player as my 1st review on how a disc flies. Heck when the Z Drone came out my 1st two reviews were from 1000 rated players and they were spot on.

Heck when the Z Drone came out my 1st two reviews were from 1000 rated players and they were spot on.



What did they say?

Just in case anybody cares. http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7614/46472750va5.th.png (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=46472750va5.png)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/JHBLADER86/ee2709ab.bmp?t=1234820850

Well, the image isnt working.

Reviews are exactly that reviews and companies want them as well as players. All are equally important besides if you want to test a disc out spend the money and throw it yourself and ignore public reviews. Also I don't see that many 1000+ rated golfers on the discussion board anyways.

lol, so only about 200 ppl in the world are really that good at dg. man! we all suck!
We should all just shut up while we are ahead, this guy apparently has all the answers....
Dont ask questions, dont try to argue it. u suck.
*gag*

I suggest *you* go back and read your original posts. Among other things, you say


In my initial post I was vague. That is why I made follow-up posts specifying, repeatedly, that my issue is with the ability to make consistent posts. Every other post has made sure to qualify my statements.


At this point, you've made zero argument to refute anything you posted earlier. Imo, you've done nothing except dig yourself in deeper.


I don't want to refute my own points. What the hell would I want to do that for?


lol, so only about 200 ppl in the world are really that good at dg. man! we all suck!


Good to hear you're finally coming around to my side of the debate.

you really just sound like someone who might be a bit over confident in their opinion and what other people think about what they say. please stop trying to prove your point as it has been repeatedly disagreed with. If you want to ignorantly continue to think the way you do after you have been told by so many people that your "ideas" about ratings arent based on much other than your game and to insult someone else's is not your place. just because you can admit you suck doesnt mean that other people need to hear it from you.

The only way to get consistent reviews then would be to construct a modified "Iron Byron", a machine that releases the disc exactly the same each time... Iron Byron is the club swing robot the golfing industry uses to measure golf ball properties.

When I read disc reviews, I concentrate on those written by people with similar power like me. A review posted by , say, Markus K�llstr�m would be of no use to me...

you really just sound like someone who might be a bit over confident in their opinion and what other people think about what they say. please stop trying to prove your point as it has been repeatedly disagreed with. If you want to ignorantly continue to think the way you do after you have been told by so many people that your "ideas" about ratings arent based on much other than your game and to insult someone else's is not your place. just because you can admit you suck doesnt mean that other people need to hear it from you.


*click click* *back back*


I'm enjoying this thread quite a lot. :)

The only way to get consistent reviews then would be to construct a modified "Iron Byron", a machine that releases the disc exactly the same each time... Iron Byron is the club swing robot the golfing industry uses to measure golf ball properties.

When I read disc reviews, I concentrate on those written by people with similar power like me. A review posted by , say, Markus K�llstr�m would be of no use to me...


I agree 100%. I believe that it is possible as well. Wasn't there a product released a few years ago (or a year ago, don't remember precisely) that was essentially an "extension" of your arm, and really allowed people to get a ton of rip behind throws? I wish I could remember what it was called. But by attaching one to a motor of some sort, I could see it being possible to get a truly accurate review of a disc's flight properties.


-Chris.

What if you've achieved a rating of 1000 or better but due to whatever circumstances are less than 990 now? (i'll go read the thread now)

generalizing and saying that anyone rated below a certain number should not test discs is crazy.


Never said that.


excuse me, i meant to say ....
"generalizing and saying that anyone rated below a certain number should not <u>review disc flights</u> is crazy."

i hope i'm allowed to correct myself, even though you know what i was saying. you just wanted to be a [fill in the blank]. no surprise.

I could really care less about this, but I'd just like to point out Dave Dunipace's rating.

966





YEA, that guy doesn't know anything about throwing a disc. :D:o:D

My pappy once told me that arguing with an idiot often makes you look like a fool. :D:D

generalizing and saying that anyone rated below a certain number should not test discs is crazy.


Never said that.


excuse me, i meant to say ....
"generalizing and saying that anyone rated below a certain number should not <u>review disc flights</u> is crazy."

i hope i'm allowed to correct myself, even though you know what i was saying. you just wanted to be a [fill in the blank]. no surprise.


No, I've repeatedly said that people that can't throw well enough to play 1000 rated golf on a consistent basis can't be trusted to review the consistency of disc flights. Do you people just ignore what I'm saying completely? Because if so you'd be better served by just not responding than by following the crowd and accusing me of saying things I'm not saying over and over and over.

Heck when the Z Drone came out my 1st two reviews were from 1000 rated players and they were spot on.





Slightly faster with more glide and less fade then a FLX. It is like a Beefy Wasp in that it can be used on lower lines than the FLX but still should have enough stability for nearly any throw.
What did they say?

problem solved :D
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k266/garyE500/new%20folder/Picture1.jpg

If I am a player rated in the 800's, what good is it to me to hear how a given disc works for a 1000-rated Pro? I think reading a variety of reviews from players of a variety of skill levels is the best approach. Sandstrom says something great on his Innova page (http://www.innovadiscs.com/team/christian.html ) :

"Throw the disc like you wanna throw it, not like everybody else all the time, find your own style and keep that line. You got to believe in yourself and train a lot, that is the key."

the same approach can be applied to what discs you carry.

with respect to consistency, i find it helpful to hear how consistent persons of a variety of skill levels find a given mold. now someone of your rating, aspiring to be a 1000 rated golfer, may only want to hear what the top players have to say(?)
Blake's site -- www.discgolfreview.com (http://www.discgolfreview.com) -- is a good place to look for disc reviews. what are some others?

:D

generalizing and saying that anyone rated below a certain number should not test discs is crazy.


Never said that.


excuse me, i meant to say ....
"generalizing and saying that anyone rated below a certain number should not <u>review disc flights</u> is crazy."

i hope i'm allowed to correct myself, even though you know what i was saying. you just wanted to be a [fill in the blank]. no surprise.


No, I've repeatedly said that people that can't throw well enough to play 1000 rated golf on a consistent basis can't be trusted to review the consistency of disc flights. Do you people just ignore what I'm saying completely? Because if so you'd be better served by just not responding than by following the crowd and accusing me of saying things I'm not saying over and over and over.



uh... right. how is that different again?

so... because i do a better job of summing things up, i'm wrong? or maybe you just couldn't find a decent argument to refute what i said, so you repeated some random thing you said in the past and tried to pass it off as a misquoted, misunderstood moment of brilliance on your part. *ding ding*

somehow i JUST NOW figured out that this is not worth my time. i guess i thought we were up against someone at our level. 990+ rated thinkers would be a good way to look at us, Chris. maybe you can find a dumbed down version of the pdga and join that discussion board since your opinions aren't up to par with ours. we dont need any 950 something rated thoughts around here.

No, I've repeatedly said that people that can't throw well enough to play 1000 rated golf on a consistent basis can't be trusted to review the consistency of disc flights. Do you people just ignore what I'm saying completely? Because if so you'd be better served by just not responding than by following the crowd and accusing me of saying things I'm not saying over and over and over.



Ok, now here's the response that Chuck Kennedy could write, but since he hasn't yet, I'll do it... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

No, it isn't impossible for a player who is less consistent to determine if a disc mold is inconsistent. It just takes more data and/or you can state conclusions at a different confidence level.

For example, perfect robot golfer in an indoor arena with the ventilation system off (eliminates wind differences) throws 2 discs of the same model 30 times each. Disc 1 lands within 12" of on the line, within 5 feet of the same distance all 30 times. Disc 2 lands with the same spread but is 5 feet right of the line and 10 feet farther. Statistically, you can probably say the two discs are different.

Put the spread of a 1000 rated human with the distribution caused by varying wind, and the two distributions start to overlap.

Now a 900 human is likely even more spread out or just shorter armed for some other reason. So it takes a lot more data to determine if the discs are different... and a bigger difference for them to be statistically different at any specific significance level.

Besides, what's the difference between 950 and 1000? About 1 shot every 3-4 holes... If you happen to not be able to get within 30 feet of the 350 foot holes you could have a lower rating just due to distance issues...

A disc is 100% consistent. It will never change in the middle of the flight. Rating the consistency of flight cannot be done by any human, even if they are 1036 rated. It can only be done by a machine, and this fact has been touched on here in previous posts. The machine will tell you a single disc flies the same way every time. Now testing a mold across different weights and plastics is a different story.

This whole thread is really hilarious. I see everyone misinterpreting Woj's comments about "reviewing consistency" to be "reviewing the flight" of a disc. The fact that Woj is really just fanning the flames points to obvious boredom. Woj, who is your boss? This person needs to give you more work to do.

My two cents: rating is less important than how long someone's been around the game (see Dunipace, Dave). I am rated 1011 but have been playing only since '04, so I basically rely on others (Dave and Avery, who I know have heard it straight from Dave D...) to tell me what's consistent and what's not, and that's what I throw to a large degree. Honestly, it's pretty darn tough to tell if it's you or the disc that's being inconsistent when you're out throwing them at a field. I don't really trust myself to be able to tell. It's also, WHAT are you consistent at...there are a bunch of players who have a much more consistent, say, backhand from 300-350 than I do, that are rated below 990 for whatever reason (putting, distance, mental game, whatever.) But these players might be of more use commenting on the consistency of a disc's flight than I would be.

Obviously, these guiding principles still apply: 1. throw what you like and what works for you, and 2. depending on how far you throw (and HOW you throw), other people's disc flight reviews won't do much for you.. As I'm understanding CWoj, he still agrees with these two baseline principles and that seems to deflate most of the criticism directed towards what he's saying. I suppose there is something to be said for a disc being more/less consistent depending on speed, and therefore differences in consistency for shorter armed (rather than big-pro-armed) players. But I don't really think that is a situation that occurs often enough to take away the main gist of what CWoj is saying. Hopefully no offense is caused, but I wouldn't trust a review of a disc's consistency from a low-rated player (because I assume, not having anything to base my guess on besides their rating, that they have the same shortcomings I do). There are so many opinions out there on discs that are just crazy and wrong, you have to sift through 'em somehow! I am constantly realizing how wrong my previous impressions of discs were...

Besides, what's the difference between 950 and 1000?



probably putting more than anything else -- so only read reviews of putters that are written by disc golfers rated 1000. preferably stick to those guys above 1020... how many of those guys write reviews? :eek: :D

This whole thread is really hilarious. I see everyone misinterpreting Woj's comments about "reviewing consistency" to be "reviewing the flight" of a disc. The fact that Woj is really just fanning the flames points to obvious boredom. Woj, who is your boss? This person needs to give you more work to do.


haha... Yeah I pretty much started fanning the flames this morning when I realized people here were too [censored] stupid (see!) to figure out that my entire argument is simply with the ability to judge consistency as opposed to flight. Which ARE completely different things. As for my boss... eMail my professors at the University of Toledo ;)




Obviously, these guiding principles still apply: 1. throw what you like and what works for you, and 2. depending on how far you throw (and HOW you throw), other people's disc flight reviews won't do much for you.. As I'm understanding CWoj, he still agrees with these two baseline principles and that seems to deflate most of the criticism directed towards what he's saying. I suppose there is something to be said for a disc being more/less consistent depending on speed, and therefore differences in consistency for shorter armed (rather than big-pro-armed) players. But I don't really think that is a situation that occurs often enough to take away the main gist of what CWoj is saying.


Thank you very much for understanding what I've been trying to say from the beginning!

Yeah I pretty much started fanning the flames this morning when I realized people here were too [censored] stupid (see!) to figure out that my entire argument is simply with the ability to judge consistency as opposed to flight. Which ARE completely different things. As for my boss... eMail my professors at the University of Toledo ;)





ZERO class...not to mention the fact that your logical abilities appear to be on par with Forrect Gump.

Maybe you would be better suited to bowling

PS: Sorry to everyone else. I could not help it.

Yeah I pretty much started fanning the flames this morning when I realized people here were too [censored] stupid (see!) to figure out that my entire argument is simply with the ability to judge consistency as opposed to flight. Which ARE completely different things. As for my boss... eMail my professors at the University of Toledo ;)





ZERO class...not to mention the fact that your logical abilities appear to be on par with Forrect Gump.

Maybe you would be better suited to bowling

PS: Sorry to everyone else. I could not help it.


Says the guy whose only response to my statement that he's a blatant liar on another forum is "[censored]." You haven't even tried to debate in any way.

HA! if we take it all the way back, to the beginning of the debate. i believe this stemmed from the idea that discs never have variation and inconsistencies from disc to disc, and all this variation is within the throwers' shortcomings. there have been many tactical argument changes and derailments, but is the point still being defended which began this argument, the point being that discs (from the same mold) dont vary from one to another, and will all fly identical if you could throw them all completely identically? seems that somehow the issues of debate have magically mutated into something new.

this is where it began, but i doubt that this single point can be defended with any seriousness.

HA! if we take it all the way back, to the beginning of the debate. i believe this stemmed from the idea that discs never have variation and inconsistencies from disc to disc, and all this variation is within the throwers' shortcomings. there have been many tactical argument changes and derailments, but is the point still being defended which began this argument, the point being that discs (from the same mold) dont vary from one to another, and will all fly identical if you could throw them all completely identically? seems that somehow the issues of debate have magically mutated into something new.

this is where it began, but i doubt that this single point can be defended with any seriousness.




Well that is false because each disc is slightly different with some flying a bit different than the rest. So your disc will fly the same every time if thrown the same but it may not be like the others of the same mold.

HA! if we take it all the way back, to the beginning of the debate. i believe this stemmed from the idea that discs never have variation and inconsistencies from disc to disc, and all this variation is within the throwers' shortcomings. there have been many tactical argument changes and derailments, but is the point still being defended which began this argument, the point being that discs (from the same mold) dont vary from one to another, and will all fly identical if you could throw them all completely identically? seems that somehow the issues of debate have magically mutated into something new.

this is where it began, but i doubt that this single point can be defended with any seriousness.


I've never had an issue with this, except at a very very minor level. I haven't noticed it to be significant in any way with any discs that would make me believe it was an issue. At most it was an issue of such minor degrees that I'd chalk it up to my own throwing inconsistencies before I'd chalk it up to there being a difference between two seemingly identical chunks of plastic.

I'm AMAZED you don't remember the Freedom Flight in July where I threw a variety of First Run Forces you handed me and they all flew pretty much the same, headwind or tailwind. And you couldn't figure out why they weren't doing the same things they "usually" did.

PS: Sorry to everyone else. I could not help it.


Says the guy whose only response to my statement that he's a blatant liar on another forum is "[censored]." You haven't even tried to debate in any way.

[/QUOTE]

YOU GOT ME!!! THIS WHOLE TIME I HAVE BEEN POSTING ON DISC GOLF FORUMS I HAVE BEEN A BLATANT LIAR!!!

Oh the shame of it all... I am so low...

PS: I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not the one who is shooting his mouth off and insulting about everyone involved in the conversation (on this forum, and on Discgolfreviews and even my Youtube video). I do not care WHAT you point is... You are a condescending, insulting, classless, nothing to me. I would no sooner debate you than my dog.

Yeah I pretty much started fanning the flames this morning when I realized people here were too [censored] stupid (see!) to figure out that my entire argument is simply with the ability to judge consistency as opposed to flight. Which ARE completely different things. As for my boss... eMail my professors at the University of Toledo ;)





ZERO class...not to mention the fact that your logical abilities appear to be on par with Forrect Gump.

Maybe you would be better suited to bowling

PS: Sorry to everyone else. I could not help it.


Says the guy whose only response to my statement that he's a blatant liar on another forum is "[censored]." You haven't even tried to debate in any way.



That was not me. I have no idea how to throw forehand. I also do not post Youtube comments.

No class.


Subject: No disc reviews from players rated under 990 allowed! (http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=150443#p150443)

Mr. Woj... ah yes... I know this guy.

I received a Youtube comment from Mr. Woj the other day. He basically insulted me (which seems to be a very common thing on Youtube comments) and added nothing at all positive in his comments other than something along the lines of "your doing it wrong".

He is making a fatal flaw. He should just say, "oops, I did not mean that the way it came out, it was stupid, sorry". Instead he just digs in his heels and defends his position, no matter how ridiculous and insulting to everyone it effects.

Mr. Woj seems to be suffering from "Little Man Syndrome" also known as "Napoleon Complex"...most likely an offshoot of a low IQ, youth, and height.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex

Note: He does respect Blake though, at least on the grip. So, Blake is up there.


Says the inconsiderate fellow that came onto a video I posted as an instructional piece on how to throw with a deep forehand power grip. YOUR contact with me was to state that my grip was wrong and yours was better. You added nothing to the video except to state that I wasn't throwing forehand with the right grip. It wasn't "the other day" it was two months ago. It wasn't me adding nothing positive to something you posted but to say "you're doing it wrong." It was you adding nothing positive to my video except to state that my grip was wrong.

HA! if we take it all the way back, to the beginning of the debate. i believe this stemmed from the idea that discs never have variation and inconsistencies from disc to disc, and all this variation is within the throwers' shortcomings. there have been many tactical argument changes and derailments, but is the point still being defended which began this argument, the point being that discs (from the same mold) dont vary from one to another, and will all fly identical if you could throw them all completely identically? seems that somehow the issues of debate have magically mutated into something new.

this is where it began, but i doubt that this single point can be defended with any seriousness.


I've never had an issue with this, except at a very very minor level. I haven't noticed it to be significant in any way with any discs that would make me believe it was an issue. At most it was an issue of such minor degrees that I'd chalk it up to my own throwing inconsistencies before I'd chalk it up to there being a difference between two seemingly identical chunks of plastic.




Indeed, if we had to sum up the entire thread &amp; debate, that is what it comes down to. Since he has never come across variations in disc flight performance personally, they *cannot* exist and it all must chalked up to the fact that we are all terrible disc golfers with ratings under 990 and inconsistent form, whose disc reviews should not be trusted, and should not be making them. In his mind, all XCals, TeeRexes, Wraiths, Forces, fly EXACTLY the same and there is never *any* variation between different runs or even between discs within the same run. It's the classic case of "I won't believe it until I see it with my own eyes." And in the process, he has insulted the intellect and ability of a good portion of the disc golf world.

When you have one disc that is severely understable, and one disc that is overstable, the difference is IMMEDIATELY obvious to a 990-rated player, to a 950-rated player, or to a 900-rated player. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to go out in a field, use a flag to gauge the wind, and throw the discs a dozen times to observe the differences. It is COMPLETELY OBVIOUS to anyone with half a brain.

"But the fact is: if you're not consistent enough to throw good enough drives to play 995+ rated golf on a consistent basis, you're not good enough to give a proper review of the consistency of a disc."
--Chris W. from Groove thread

First of all I'm not all about nailing someone against a wall because they went a little too far with the hyperbole, and in my time here Chris W. has always seemed like a nice guy.

Many beliefs I've held in the past about DG have either been wrong or too simplistic as I have come to see with time. I don't know how many times I have thought I was just 1 thing away from being rated 1000, whether it was putting, a disc, a shot, consistency (as if it is actually a quantifiable thing we can even talk about), coolness under pressure, etc. I've played, practiced, taken advice from the best, improved every single facet of my skill set, and I'm still rated in the 960s. That being said, a casual golfer playing a casual round with Ken Climo and I would be hard pressed to tell you who was the better player. We can both throw 400'+ with accuracy and consistency, we both can hit "the perfect line" on any hole at our home course, and we are both used to hitting some metal from the tee in any given round. We are also both going to lose concentration at some point and dink a putt or shank a drive. The 70-80 point difference in our ratings has very little to do with our skills and everything to do with what happens the second the horn blows and Ken turns into "The Champ" and I turn into God knows what and struggle to execute things I've known how to do with my eyes closed for years. This has nothing to do with my ability to throw a disc and write a review.

I suspect Chris, like me at that point in my development, believes he is one or two things away from becoming a "superpro" and is romanticising what those guys have and he does not. I doubt he has played a lot of rounds with guys of that caliber and has an oversimplified view of what a great player is. He obviously does not really think he sucks (or why would he be so quick to "help" those he plays with and be so quick to give advice and tell people what they are doing is wrong if he believed he sucked). C'mon Chris, you can't play it both ways.

Anyway, I don't want this to become negative as it has already. Chris, you're wrong. A rating is one arbitrary number and is not enough to give creedance to an opinion or take it away. It is based on scoring, not throwing. Throwing a disc with perfect technique does not necessarily score, and not scoring well does not mean that you can't throw. It is worthwhile to question the source of any information, especially disc reviews, but there is not a sure fire, single way to determine whether the review is useful to you or not.

One last point...Ask Dave D. how many of the people he goes to the field to test new Innova discs with are rated 995+.



For some reason Chris had nothing to say regarding the counterpoints in my post, so I will reiterate in bullet form:

Point 1: Throwing a disc with proper technique and consistency and interpreting a discs flight characteristics is indirectly related to rating at best.

Point 2: Chris does not play with people rated 995+ very often and he has a romanticised view of these peoples' games, skill level, etc.

Point 3: Chris lacks wisdom that will make him look back at this thread one day and feel stupid.

Point 4: Goes with point 1, Dave D. invented the discs in Chris' bag, yet Chris, by asserting that correct interpretation of disc flight is an ability only possessed by those with ratings of 995+, believes that Dave is unable to do so. Yet he pays the man money for discs...

Point 5: I had respect for Chris based on a history of respectful dialogue. Now all I have are images of a pompous post adolescent chuckling at how much better he thinks he is than the DG proliteriate...

One last note about the possibility and usefullness of a "throwing machine". I asked Dave D. about this once and he said that Innova had once had such a thing, but the data it produced was so out of tune with the way different people threw discs that the machine was of no use. He went back to different people throwing discs in a field.

i dont believe the orriginal post says that he has no value in the reviews of sub990 golfers he just wants to see reviews from a or many players who have developed a consistant history of stellar performance.
that he also puts a greater value from the over990 crowd
his opinion that a greater possibuility of consistant test flights is just an opinion. we all have opinions.
i know that a recomendation on my form or tecnique coming from a top advanced or playing pro are weighted higher than the comments of less expierienced players.
that being said there are many expierinced players that dont fit above 990

Well that is false because each disc is slightly different with some flying a bit different than the rest. So your disc will fly the same every time if thrown the same but it may not be like the others of the same mold.



Hey, a golfer is saying that discs of the same mold may vary! (possibly significantly)

*Click* *Click* *Back* *Back*

Player Rating = 1011.

And there we go! A 1010+ rated player confirms it. End of discussion, right? (Well, unless Woj comes up with some new excuse to back up his weak argument)

It's Matt Hall! Why would you want to listen to that guy?!

It's Matt Hall! Need I say more??

j/k

I actually started all this when i said it was weak for calling someone out for their rating being 'only' 950.
Cwoj, ur arguments are ridiculus. admit it. stop embarrassing urself. stop trying to bend and twist ur original argument that "unless ur 995 or higher rated, you are not qualified to give accurate disc reviews.", into something completely different.
Im looking at ur original argument and still laughing at the completely ridiculusness of it.
Just stop. For Gods sake, stop.

this thread was and is a waste of bandwidth.

the other problem with wanting reviews from 1000 rated players is they are almost all sponsored and so their reviews are limited to which discs they actually throw and they also would have some bias not to say anything bad about molds made by their sponsor.
take the limited number of 1000-rated players, and then weed out those that don't get online much and those that aren't very good at articulating and you would be left with very few reviews... (are there disc reviews on youtube)?

maybe he was hypnotized and all this is just a hidden conspiracy by ball-sport enthusiasts to silence talk about discs :o

I've never had an issue with this, except at a very very minor level. I haven't noticed it to be significant in any way with any discs that would make me believe it was an issue. At most it was an issue of such minor degrees that I'd chalk it up to my own throwing inconsistencies before I'd chalk it up to there being a difference between two seemingly identical chunks of plastic.

I'm AMAZED you don't remember the Freedom Flight in July where I threw a variety of First Run Forces you handed me and they all flew pretty much the same, headwind or tailwind. And you couldn't figure out why they weren't doing the same things they "usually" did.



i do remember this moment, and i didnt want to bring it up, but since you did, i will respond. you threw 2 of my first run forces (no more no less), one that flew straight for me, and one that flew over stable. you didnt believe that it was that stable so you threw both, no the one that flew overstable for me, didnt dive left for you, but it did, to your admission, fly differently from the other (which you turned over in the wind and it never came out). we dont throw with the same power, so the one that was overstable for me, flew straight for you, and the one that flew straight for me turned over for you. and you admitted this then and there. this is one of the reasons i dont understand your argument rooting from the idea that there are no abberations in discs. maybe you remember it differently than i do, but i know they were not the same. and perhaps you think that you and i arent rated high enough to know the difference, ok. then why would both main disc manufacturers admit to this very problem if it didnt actually exist? maybe you are lucky and dont run into inconsistancies, but i do know you like many others look for specific traits in discs, werent you looking for a 'flat top' champion firebird after you lost one at the westcourse? or maybe you just like the self deprecation of saying you suck and blaming every inconsistency you can on yourself?

I'm AMAZED you don't remember the Freedom Flight in July where I threw a variety of First Run Forces you handed me and they all flew pretty much the same, headwind or tailwind. And you couldn't figure out why they weren't doing the same things they "usually" did.



i do remember this moment, and i didnt want to bring it up, but since you did, i will respond. you threw 2 of my first run forces (no more no less), one that flew straight for me, and one that flew over stable. you didnt believe that it was that stable so you threw both, no the one that flew overstable for me, didnt dive left for you, but it did, to your admission, fly differently from the other (which you turned over in the wind and it never came out). we dont throw with the same power, so the one that was overstable for me, flew straight for you, and the one that flew straight for me turned over for you. and you admitted this then and there. this is one of the reasons i dont understand your argument rooting from the idea that there are no abberations in discs. maybe you remember it differently than i do, but i know they were not the same. and perhaps you think that you and i arent rated high enough to know the difference, ok. then why would both main disc manufacturers admit to this very problem if it didnt actually exist? maybe you are lucky and dont run into inconsistancies, but i do know you like many others look for specific traits in discs, werent you looking for a 'flat top' champion firebird after you lost one at the westcourse? or maybe you just like the self deprecation of saying you suck and blaming every inconsistency you can on yourself?



Aha! The truth comes out.

and chris and i remember things differently obviously, which is fine, but ill add these quotes from Dave D, himself. ...

"The Boss is running with variation, like all the wide rimmed discs. The domey top version is more XCaliber like, (it was what I was originally testing), the flat version has a -2 turn and is very long, but also hard to predict in some situations."

"We can partially control the dome and stability of the wide rimmed discs, but there still is an element of uncertainty."

and chris and i remember things differently obviously, which is fine, but ill add this quote from Dave D, himself. ...

"The Boss is running with variation, like all the wide rimmed discs. The domey top version is more XCaliber like, (it was what I was originally testing), the flat version has a -2 turn and is very long, but also hard to predict in some situations."



Please don't let facts from the actual disc manufacturer, which 100% back up everyone's observations, get in the way of an outlandish assertion that we're rated under 990 and can't throw with consistent form and don't know what we're talking about. :D

I hate to see people with a common interest fighting like this. I think it's time to agree to disagree.

Maybe Cwoj can alter his throw to make different discs all fly the same way and he doesn't perceive a difference in certain runs of molds, maybe the rest of us have a consistent throw and different plastics give us a perception/reality of inconsistency.

What it comes down to is YOUR game. Some of us beat ourselves up for motivation while others make excuses. No two people are exactly the same.

Personally, I throw because I like to challenge myself and when other people play better than me, it only inspires me.

What would Steady Ed say if he saw his passion turning into this bickering?

Throw plastic. Have fun!!! We're all here because we LOVE disc golf.

To quote Stan McDaniel from the 2008 Worlds DVD...

"Never against the players, I love those guys, they're so much fun. If I play the course the way I want to and I get beat, I can leave with feeling good about it."

And to quote Ken Climo

"It's you against the course and that's all it is, if you play the course correctly, you might do well in the tournament. And if you get caught up in what other people are doing, you're going to have mind games with yourself and....it's not going to work out."

That being said, I'd love to play a round with both Jeff and Cwoj and see if we don't have fun...no matter who wins ;) The kicker is, I've never played in a tournament and I'm not rated. But that will change soon...

What would Steady Ed say if he saw his passion turning into this bickering?




He probably knew it was coming when he made the motto for the bottom of his FRISBEES: "Have fun, invent games!"

Most of the nonsense here is just a game.

Most of the nonsense here is just a game.



blasphemy! :D

Like I tell the people that I sell discs to in the parking lot.........."I have no idea what the disc is going to do when YOU throw it. I only know what it will do when I throw it."

You need to take all these disc reviews with a grain of salt. Oh, and remember, you all suck!

Okay in light of the fun and games ending and people starting to make sense.........

http://www.motorcitychaingang.com/forum/...;start=60#p2201 (http://www.motorcitychaingang.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&amp;t=309&amp;st=0&amp;sk=t&amp;sd=a&amp;start=60#p 2201) - Here's a post in a thread about the Groove from a month ago on another forum..... wherein I argue the exact opposite side of the coin ;) Its been fun spending the week stirring up [censored]. These forums are sooo boring lately.


-Chris.

My rating is growing, Im at 972 and can hang with 1000+ plus rated players when Im on. I have good critiques and I understand disc flights pretty exstinsive. A rating shows how good you compete in a consistant basis. My mentor's in disc golf who know way more about Disc and Disc flights than I do have ratings of 930 and less........they both have played little tourny's for dofferent reason's, yet there were and are great teachers and advice givers of the game. So 2 under 930 rated players are the reason I will be 1000+ soon.....

Point 5: I had respect for Chris based on a history of respectful dialogue. Now all I have are images of a pompous post adolescent chuckling at how much better he thinks he is than the DG proliteriate...



Ooooo, DS nails it once again...

Update: I informed Wooooojie about not being this guy who posted insults to his Youtube video (this being the reason he insulted me on my Youtube post and called me a "liar" on this forum and on the DGR forum).

Not a word... not a "sorry", "oops my bad", nothing...

Like I said, no class.

Point 5: I had respect for Chris based on a history of respectful dialogue. Now all I have are images of a pompous post adolescent chuckling at how much better he thinks he is than the DG proliteriate...



Ooooo, DS nails it once again...

Update: I informed Wooooojie about not being this guy who posted insults to his Youtube video (this being the reason he insulted me on my Youtube post and called me a "liar" on this forum and on the DGR forum).

Not a word... not a "sorry", "oops my bad", nothing...

Like I said, no class.


The thread was locked and is gone. I'm going to respond to something that no longer exists in its previous location? If you're not that fellow: I apologize. The only time I recalled something like that happening is some [censored] coming onto one of my vids. I don't comment enough on YouTube to really remember the other occasions *shrug*