Why aren't there more benefits for PDGA Certified TDs that are actively promoting the sport and bringing new members into the game?

First, here is a brief run down of the contributions I've made to disc golf and the PDGA:

Personally and directly responsible for signing up multiple PDGA members, three of which are females and are active in the Oregon tournament scene. I stress the female issue because there is a overall lack of women in this sport, but here in Oregon we are seeing some huge female amateur fields.

I ran Four PDGA sanctioned events in 2008 and raised over $500.00 for the Willamette Open, Oregon's second biggest event of the year (besides the Beaver State Fling).

I also give lessons in the area and run Frisbee clinics during the summer for the kids in my karate school.

I was an Ace Club Member in '09, and a Birdie Club member in '08.

Second: I realize that my contributions while significant in my mind are minor in the grand scheme of things and that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of individuals in the sport of disc golf more deserving of PDGA benefits. I don't want this to become an "all about me" ordeal, but I thought it pertinent to mention my brief history with the sport.

Third: Why does it cost money to become a certified official, if that person is only helping the PDGA in the long run and bringing revenue to the PDGA through entry fees, new memberships, and non-member fees?

Is there any way that active TDs can get benefits through the PDGA like...waved membership fees? I bring this up because as it stands right now, I'm looking at my renewal cost of $75.00 and trying to figure out how I afforded ace club last year. Quite frankly, I'm frustrated that I have to pay the PDGA to do volunteer work for them and ultimately not see any visible return.

Wouldn't it be in the PDGA's interest to offer incentive programs to aspiring TDs and reward them for their efforts in furthering the sport? Its tough work as any TD can tell you, and other than those warm and fuzzy feelings from volunteering your time and money to see people get to play competitive disc golf (and believe me, I like that feeling...but it does wear off), there is really nothing else that keeps TDs coming back for more.

What is the PDGA doing about this, and has it considered a program like this in the past?

Lastly: I can very easily see this post back firing on me and people claiming I'm selfish, looking for a hand out, self centered, and love typing about myself, but even if all those things are true, the issue is still the same. And just in case you were wondering. I'm going to renew this year very soon, and am already planning Oregon's first Super Class Event. Also, please don't read this post as me being unhappy with the PDGA or trying to mutiny against its governing in our sport. I am one of its greatest allies and believers in its decisions (otherwise I would't have done any of the things I've done). Mostly, I believe in this sport, and right now the PDGA is the best opportunity I see for us to gain popularity for our game.

Dion Arlyn
Proud PDGA Member #24781

Hi, RtW. I'd agree, the PDGA does little for its TDs and promoters, and could easily comp a few memberships, hand out a few perks, grease some palms in a lot of places. That being said, it becomes a question of where to draw the line and how much to spend. Who gets what would be a constant source of grief, and we all know there's enough to keep the complainers complaining, anyway. I hear what you're saying, though.

There are provisions for TDs to take a slice of the pie from their events and you could review those. Don't recall the specifics myself, but there is an "allowed" percentage of skimmage of a few percent or something like that. Moreover, a successful and energetic TD should receive plenty of indirect benefit from their work via an increased local player base, bigger events, more merch table and trunk sales, bigger club memberships, etc.

Of course, like all tasks involving a BOD, the hardest part is getting them to act.

Joe

Hey RtW,

I can give you a little info about what the pdga does for it's hard-working volunteers. We've got to do the PM method because there are some new MB policies in place that are designed to reduce criticism of the HQ.

I think they should have a TD recognition plan and it should work like the premiums the girls win for selling Girl Scout cookies. Collect $X for the PDGA in player fees and you get a recognition reward from column A. Collect $Y and get something from column B.

I remember we worked our butts off for the froggy pillow. She still has the froggy pillow.

Let�s assume you�re comparing being TD for a sanctioned event vs non-sanctioned. How does PDGA sanctioning help the TD?

1. Provides a potentially larger player turnout in many areas with a built-in pool of members interested in playing sanctioned events partly because several of their stats are tracked

2. Provides a tour schedule with a website players can look to find events and a website link to the official event website if there is one

3. Option for online pre-registration

4. Optional event insurance which is required in many places

5. Organized process (TD report) for tracking income & expenses, calculating payouts and reporting results to a website that processes standings and unofficial ratings. Just the fact an automated website is available in a centralized location for players to find results is worthwhile when you consider TDs of non sanctioned events would need to either develop or get others to develop a website to display results.

6. Event reporting incorporates compensation to the TD team with published payout standards to help set player expectations. If TDs elect not to keep what they are allowed to under the guidelines, that�s the TDs call not the PDGAs. In non-sanctioned events, players might expect to get everything paid back with nothing for the TD.

7. For TDs who have additional disc golf business interests, the payout process and added sales can provide income with the event being an ideal place for sales. Refer to item 1 again and remember that the PDGA fees are ultimately paid by the players, not the TDs, unless the TDs choose to absorb them.

8. PDGA provides a structure for play that goes beyond the core rules of the game to backstop TDs who insist that players follow substance laws and general expectations for good behavior.

9. Many TDs do events as a way to showcase courses they either designed or had a hand in developing or improving. Sanctioned events provide a way to showcase the course and get a course SSA rating for different configurations.

10. Many TDs do events because they don�t see others willing to step in to either do them or do them the way the TD would like. So they simply do them so they have events they like to play. Again refer to item 1 so the event has attendance.

While some of these items are provided by tours like NEFA and Southern Nationals, they don�t provide all of them. And items like rules, divisional guidelines and some payout processes are borrowed from the PDGA.

With all of this being said, that still doesn�t mean it wouldn�t be nice if the PDGA expanded its recognition program for TDs beyond the TD of the Year award. Dave Gentry and I have talked about tracking some TDs stats such as number of events run in year, total added cash in their events, total number of players in their events and several other items. From this tracking, I could see developing additional recognition based on those annual achievements.

benefits to td: some advertising through website, insurance, rules

I would be in favor of some kind of benefits but I dont like the idea of TD's gaining the same benefits no matter what their skill and experience. Maybe some kind of progressive benefit scale based on number of events you run, years of experience being a TD, added cash, Tier of events run, etc.

TD's do it bcause they love the sport. But, I wouldnt mind maybe getting a free membership renewal after running an event for 5 years in a row, or maybe a different level of membership because I do run events, etc.

Let�s assume you�re comparing being TD for a sanctioned event vs non-sanctioned. How does PDGA sanctioning help the TD?

1. Provides a potentially larger player turnout in many areas with a built-in pool of members interested in playing sanctioned events partly because several of their stats are tracked





I agree, sanctioning an event does create a larger draw here in Oregon. But doesn�t that really benefit the PDGA more so than the TD (assuming the TD doesn�t have merchandise to sell to the competitors, or is taking a slice of the pie based on head count).

More players = more money generated from fees = benefit to PDGA




2. Provides a tour schedule with a website players can look to find events and a website link to the official event website if there is one

3. Option for online pre-registration

4. Optional event insurance which is required in many places

5. Organized process (TD report) for tracking income & expenses, calculating payouts and reporting results to a website that processes standings and unofficial ratings. Just the fact an automated website is available in a centralized location for players to find results is worthwhile when you consider TDs of non sanctioned events would need to either develop or get others to develop a website to display results.





All of these make it easier for the TD, but that is not incentive to become a TD. Imagine an add campaign on the PDGA home page that read �Sanction an event today, it�s so easy!� v. �Sanction an event today, and receive half off your membership dues!� Which one would make you want to run an event more?




6. Event reporting incorporates compensation to the TD team with published payout standards to help set player expectations. If TDs elect not to keep what they are allowed to under the guidelines, that�s the TDs call not the PDGAs. In non-sanctioned events, players might expect to get everything paid back with nothing for the TD.

7. For TDs who have additional disc golf business interests, the payout process and added sales can provide income with the event being an ideal place for sales. Refer to item 1 again and remember that the PDGA fees are ultimately paid by the players, not the TDs, unless the TDs choose to absorb them.





I have no problem taking money from an event, but it just so happens that most everyone else in Oregon (all the folks who haven�t run events) look at that and cry foul. We have had some TDs in the past who took probably more than they should have, so there is a deep felt sentiment about TDs taking money at the cost of the player (both in payout and overall event experience). I�m probably going to incorporate a fee into my advertised entry cost and let the players decide if they want to play or not, but as of yet, I�ve stayed away from taking money in hopes to gain favor with the tournament crowd, as well as keep payouts as high as possible




8. PDGA provides a structure for play that goes beyond the core rules of the game to backstop TDs who insist that players follow substance laws and general expectations for good behavior.

9. Many TDs do events as a way to showcase courses they either designed or had a hand in developing or improving. Sanctioned events provide a way to showcase the course and get a course SSA rating for different configurations.





I certainly like these two. I love modifying the course and getting to take credit for it when a player asks, �who came up with that hole, I love it!� As far as the substance issue is concerned, players will do what they want to, and even a TD willing to call them on it won�t necessarily stop them from doing it. I personally am against any substance use in or around disc golf and the public parks it is played in.




10. Many TDs do events because they don�t see others willing to step in to either do them or do them the way the TD would like. So they simply do them so they have events they like to play. Again refer to item 1 so the event has attendance.





Again, that is one of my main motivations for becoming a TD. Why don�t more people step up and run an event? I would submit the following reasons:

1. Potential TDs think it is a more difficult process than it actually is.
2 There potentially is nothing in it for them, and in fact have heard so many horror stories from burnt out TDs that they would rather not bother.
3. There are no incentives offered by the governing body to really encourage such hard work.

Bottom line, if the PDGA wishes for more sanctioned events and greater participation in the sport, they should consider a TD rewards/incentive program that enables potential TDs to take that plunge into event coordination.




With all of this being said, that still doesn�t mean it wouldn�t be nice if the PDGA expanded its recognition program for TDs beyond the TD of the Year award. Dave Gentry and I have talked about tracking some TDs stats such as number of events run in year, total added cash in their events, total number of players in their events and several other items. From this tracking, I could see developing additional recognition based on those annual achievements.



Agreed. Hopefully this gets the thought process going for the PDGA, because I could see this being a turning point for the amount of participation in our sport. Also, I�m all for making the TDs earn it � positive feed back and steady attendance should be a must before some of those awesome benefits start appearing.

From a practical standpoint, the sport is growing and the number of sanctioned events is growing. In my personal, not PDGA, view the number 1 thing that prevents more new people from running events is they don't see that TDs get enough out of it for the work they do, even to break even. That's the fault of the existing TD culture, subtley encouraged by the players, for TDs to not keep anything for their efforts and in fact, cover expenses themselves so they usually lose some money.

If we were in a higher echelon on the pecking order of sports (ones where students get scholarships to college), we would have a tournament structure where we would have trained our Park personnel to run events and they would make enough money from the event financial structure to support those park department efforts, just like they receive for running softball, soccer, hockey, tennis, Little league, etc. But we (as a sport) haven't been willing to give up control of events because doing so would reduce payouts. So we take turns burning out a string of TDs over the years and expect them to do more and take less than park personnel who could do the same things.

That culture has nothing to do with the PDGA and would seemingly continue with or without the PDGA. If anything, the PDGA provides cover for TDs within the published financial procedures to actually get something for their team's efforts to potentially break the totally volunteer TD environment that would likely continue marching on in non-sanctioned environment.

I guess I'm in the minority here since as a TD I have absolutely no problem giving my time freely to help the sport. I personally find it sad that people have to be, or at least feel the need to be rewarded for volunteer work. Totally defeats the purpose IMO.

It's a matter of how much time per year is "fair" for volunteering versus the amount when it's more of a job. I think many might consider volunteer work as being needed when something is being done that has little or no money to pay the volunteers. That is not the case when people are paying to enter events like DG or most other sports. Would players decide not to play events if all TDs charged for running events and the entry fees were the same as they are now? No way. It's TDs who do things free that undermine the economics for others potentially who may do the job better and more frequently if they could not feel guilty keeping an amount that still doesn't cover their efforts.

It's TDs "volunteering" free that can hold back the sport from higher levels and breaking into more mainstream support from park depts and schools. Even if the volunteer TDs don't personally keep a penny of what they could make, they should consider withholding the appropriate amount from the payout and using it towards course improvements, outreach programs or contributions to charity so players get used to a more appropriate payout structure. That would help retain more of the quality TDs who run events more frequently can be compensated at some level with less chance to burn out.

I haven't read every post, but who ever said being a TD is a volunteer position? I dont think anyone should expect fair market value for their time at this point in the growth of the sport, however I think TDs should expect something for their time and efforts.

: ) :

i think the best example for this conversation is the guy, we all know one, that doesnt, or cant play anymore, but still runs events for the love and promotion of the sport. this person still has to pay membership dues just to be able to run events for everyone else... maybe there should be a TD only membership price, or free for people like this that want to help but dont deserve to have to pay membership to run a tournament when they do so much already.

i think the best example for this conversation is the guy, we all know one, that doesnt, or cant play anymore, but still runs events for the love and promotion of the sport. this person still has to pay membership dues just to be able to run events for everyone else... maybe there should be a TD only membership price, or free for people like this that want to help but dont deserve to have to pay membership to run a tournament when they do so much already.



OR

Just withhold the money that the PDGA allows you to and pay your membership that way or if you are not comfortable have the money to go your club. The club can choose to pay for the TDs membership. There is already a function to get things like this done. I don't see the need for another one. If people don't want to keep the money that the PDGA tells you that you can keep, then that is their own fault.

yes, but one way the pdga promotes the sport and waves the fees for these td's

the other way, the td decides that the players pay his or her pdga membership fees.

And rather than use the word "keep" it's really "earn"

yes, but one way the pdga promotes the sport and waves the fees for these td's

the other way, the td decides that the players pay his or her pdga membership fees.



Because trying to keep track X number of TDs that ran X number of events is going to be so simple to keep track of for the PDGA, not to mention when you try to renew your membership.

Either use the outline that has been provided by the PDGA or don't.

Yes, Chuck I agree with the "earned". If you run a quality event where the players had a great time; the TD or the club has earned to keep a portion of the money generated if they so choose. If it is a lone TD with no club, great he can take his wife out to dinner to make up for the 20+ hours that he spent on the tournament that week. If it is a club they can maybe do some course improvements or throw a party for the club. We are not talking about large sums of money. $100 max for a C-Tier; $5/hour.

If you are running an event that the players enjoy good competition, have good payouts, & had a great time I would hope that they would not begrudge a small event fee. If not then they can go to the events with bad payouts, poorly organized, & not so fun to play in...

This is not to say that I or my club charge this fee however, it bothers me when people think that it is wrong. As a player I am more than happy to have the TD/Club take some money if they are running a great event. I know the time & effort it takes to run one and if that is something that they wish to do I am all for it.

its not always about the players accepting the practice, yes most would be fine with it, but we all know that the type of td that is going to pay a membership fee and spend tons of time putting on events and never be able to play one, is also the type that isnt going to take money and is going to put everything back into the event. just would seem like a nice gesture from the pdga to say, "yea youve earned it. here it is." instead of "sure, you can take some if you want." if the td had the option to take said % out of the pdga fees, instead of out of the tournament $, that would be a different story, as of now the money they can take is money that would potentially go to the payout for that event, and these types of tds are going to put it all back in to make their event the best it can be.

you face them with the situation of getting compensated and taking away from their tournament at the same time.

Most sensible organizations that rely on volunteer efforts do something to recognize their more productive volunteers. It is just a self-serving business practice.

The IOSeries relies on a lot of volunteers. We give our volunteers verbal recognition but we also give them a little tangible reward. It is not compensation for their efforts but a token of our thanks. This is not only in our self-interest but also what decent people do for other decent people.

The PDGA used to throw TDs a few bones: rule books, stickers, patches, that stuff. They don't do much to recognize the TDs who outperform.

My brother probably raised five grand for the PDGA last year in $2, $3, $4 and $10 player fees and sanctioning fees. He probably paid more to the PDGA per tournament than any other TD who did five or more tournaments. If someone refers me some work and I make five grand, you don't think I find a tangible way to thank them? It is just common sense and common decency.

Most sensible organizations that rely on volunteer efforts do something to recognize their more productive volunteers. It is just a self-serving business practice.

The IOSeries relies on a lot of volunteers. We give our volunteers verbal recognition but we also give them a little tangible reward. It is not compensation for their efforts but a token of our thanks. This is not only in our self-interest but also what decent people do for other decent people.

The PDGA used to throw TDs a few bones: rule books, stickers, patches, that stuff. They don't do much to recognize the TDs who outperform.

My brother probably raised five grand for the PDGA last year in $2, $3, $4 and $10 player fees and sanctioning fees. He probably paid more to the PDGA per tournament than any other TD who did five or more tournaments. If someone refers me some work and I make five grand, you don't think I find a tangible way to thank them? It is just common sense and common decency.



WORD!

If a TD can not manage to scrape $75 out of an event to cover the cost of his/her entry fee for the following year, they are doing something wrong, or voluntarily donating everything back to the players.

Yes, the PDGA should be sending the TDs of multiple events packages with rule books and comp manuals, stickers and assorted goodies, but why should the TDs get more benefit than the rest of the volunteers?

I would put my hours donated to Disc Golf per year up against almost any TD out there and I do not have any opportunity to make any money from disc sales or Merch markup. I have also been an Ace club member every year it was available but one. I donate my time and money purposefully and expect no financial return.

If I were a TD, sanctioning would be a business decision, and expenses incurred in order to sanction events would be part of that consideration. If sanctioning events nets me more than $75 a year then it pays for my membership.

this is exactly the argument made before, and ill give you the same answer in different words.

the pdga is not giving the td's a chance to take pdga money. if the td' did this, what would happen is this TD in question would be taking more money from players, and giving it back to the PDGA in the form of membership dues. so if the pdga encourages td's to take the % they are allowed to, and put it toward membership, all they are doing is promoting the idea of paying the pdga more money. the pdga looses NOTHING and is in turn giving you NOTHING, in this specific allowance. they are allowing a TD to take money from the players or the club. and most TD's that dont play and spend the time only putting on events, would never take money from their club or their players.

if the pdga allows money to be taken out of the PDGA fees, then i would agree that the pdga is giving back to these td's already, but this isnt the case. im not saying this shouldnt be allowed or arguing against this action, im just saying that this clause (letting the td take money) wont make the pdga lose a dime, and thus the pdga isnt sacrificing anything. so dont say that the pdga already gives the td reimbursement. they dont, they allow them to TAKE it. but, the money the pdga is letting go, doesnt belong to them.

You presume the PDGA actually makes anything? The PDGA is underfunded as it is for the services provided to the sport when you consider the thousands of volunteer hours provided toward the global org (not just the massive local efforts) that are not paid for by members. The primary source of income for the PDGA is members.

If cash awards, rebates or free memberships of some sort are given back to the TDs from the global org, it's still going to come from the members. It's more efficient for the TDs to get funds/reimbursement directly from the members via event finances rather than raise member dues and have the administrative cost of handling awards payments back to the TDs. And the potential compensation is directly in proportion to how well the TD does their job for the players, not based on some judging system that would involve additional overhead cost.

Whether the 5 grand my brother sent to the PDGA last year came from him or the members is just a matter of semantics. However, if Jon were to decide to go unsanctioned next year, most of his player base would probably still play his tournaments and they probably would not volunteer to send that money to the PDGA, so the realities weigh in favor of saying that that money came from Jon.

If the IOSeries had a volunteer who was producing 5 grand for the series, he'd be getting a lot more than nothing.

And, by the way, the PDGA did make something last year. They finished the year with a larger surplus than the year before. If the PDGA were to kick back a membership to every TD who collected $1,000 or more in $2, $3 and $4 fees last year, it would cost them only a fraction of what they made in "non-profits" last year.

The way the PDGA treats their most important resource, the TDs who run their tournaments and syphon off hundreds of dollars per tournament for the PDGA, is shameful and very short-sighted.

So the PDGA provides a way for Jon to generate compensation for his efforts above and beyond non-sanctioned events and it's not enough? I listed 10 ways above how running PDGA sanctioned events helps TDs. If Jon and his team elects to give away free services to the players, that's your choice. As I also said, it doesn't mean the PDGA shouldn't do more for recognition of the TDs efforts, but doing it monetarily wouldn't be the most appropriate way to do it.

I'm not making any sense of your question, so I cannot respond to it.

The ten things you listed are what the PDGA does for every TD including the TD who does not turn in his TD report for three months, and then turns in incomplete data, and leaves it to the PDGA to piece together results by sending e-mails to people who played the tournament. Remember that tournament? I do. I've got the e-mail.

To treat that TD and the TD who goes over and above exactly the same way is not business smart, behaviorally smart, or smart in any way. It is treating people like [censored], the way you'd expect from a governmental employer or a broke mega-corporation like GM. Smart businesses find ways to recognize excellence. Stupid businesses treat people like [censored]. It does not matter whether you view TDs as PDGA volunteers or PDGA contractors. [The latter is correct but most people think of the former.] If you have someone you do business regularly who outperforms in ways that benefit your business, if you cannot simply give them more business you at least give them a Red Lobster card or something.

This is how the PDGA could fund a TD recognition program: In addition to charging a sanctioning fee, also charge every TD a refundable performance bond. Include in the sanctioning agreement the objective stuff that the PDGA wants to see happen at every tournament, like scores submitted within X days, a TD report submitted within Y days, and the money sent within Z days. [This stuff is currently included by vague reference. It should be made explicit.] If a TD does not make the objectives, he forfeits the bond. Set the bond low enough so that slacker TDs will be forfeiting regularly, like at $25.

So now the non-slackers will be getting $25 back from the PDGA for every tournament they run. And the PDGA will probably pull in $5000 or so annually that they can use to further recognize the non-slacker TDs. Maybe more; look at January 2009.

Right now seven of the thirty January tournaments don't have scores up. What's the PDGA standard on that? 14 Days for B and C-tiers? Ch-ching! We've already got $175 in our TD recognition fund compliments of the TDs who don't deserve so much recognition. :D

Those ideas and others like them have been discussed off and on for several years now. But the logistics have been too much for staff and the database to manage. Hopefully, the new and improved systems can finally address this area. Just pointing out that many TDs already have had control over a better rewards program for many years without any additional effort required by an overworked PDGA staff.

an overworked PDGA staff.



that is becoming cliche, and while i am sure the PDGA staff is inclined to give a favorable hearing to one who depicts them in such a manner -- shouldn't we find ways to have the staffing capacity to address the challenges we as an organization face rather than over-working people? over-worked people are by definition going to be less effective -- are they not?

I pointed out that efficiency is being addressed with the updated, more efficient systems. For example, I suspect members will see a much faster turnaround in the renewal packets compared with a year ago since they've integrated their data systems with Breiner last October.

are you suggesting that processing and completing renewal packets was the cause of our 'overworked' staff :confused:
making that process efficient is a welcome improvement and sends an appropriate message to dues-paying members of course ...

Yes, that was a huge part of the problem last year as many will attest to regarding how long it took to get their member packets. Not only was time saved in the actual mechanics of the improved process in November, but the big payoff came in the greatly reduced time for customer service dealing with phone calls from members wondering where their materials were. Talking to and emailing members, TDs and other volunteers to resolve issues is one of the biggest chunks of time spent by the PDGA staff. The more efficient operations become, the less troubleshooting is required.

I was not put up to this by Bruce. I happened upon this thread. Although I am a certified official, I passed a test, I doubt I will ever run a tournament. I am capable. I just don't have the time, energy, resources, desire etc. I applaud those who do. I think some type of benefit/recognition would be appropriate for TD's. I like the notion of some benefit being tied to the amount of revenue generated. The reality is that few TD's make a living from this. Some do but they are fighting to stay alive. For most its a passion for the game that makes them take the time and money from their personal stash of those resources to run a tournament. Yes. Many would do so because they love the game and they are the type of people who will volunteer for the greater good. However, giving some small incentive commensurate with their amount of activity, seems wise. A TD who puts one one or two tournaments will reap less than the TD who runs 10+ events. As a player, I want lots of TD's to have an incentive to run sanctioned events. If we got to the point where there were too many events we may have to take a second look at this. The sport is growing but it has not grown to that extent. I see it as an incentive program. When I was in the Boy Scouts some kids won a prize for selling Scout-O-rama tickets. The prize, although great to the kid, was very small in proportion to the sales generated. Some kids really wanted that cheap TV set and sold scads of tickets. If a TD really wants [insert your deal here] why not give that now grown up kid an incentive to run more tournaments. It will make the rest of us happy. My wife, and perhaps Diana Brakel, might disagree with this but that is a whole other thread. :-)