During the August monthly TDSA Administrator meeting it was decided to try a one month experiment during September related to payouts for non TDSA members. Please see the following announcement:



The TDSA exists to promote Disc Sports in the Tulsa area. Our goal is to provide the best possible experience and to bring an ever increasing level of participation and competition on our Tulsa courses.

The Administrators feel we need to accelerate our re-investment in our local courses. We need to do this in order to provide the immediate impact of a more enjoyable experience and to prepare ourselves for future tournaments to possibly include a future bid for a World Championship, as was held here most recently in 2006.

We encourage all participants to become members of the TDSA. The cost is $20.00 for one year and you receive that value immediately due to your membership package containing a Pro Boss, TDSA metal membership tag, Mini disc and a list of member benefits. These funds are used to maintain and improve our local courses.

This year we have seen an increase in non-member participation at our local mini�s. This is great as it shows our local scene is healthy and growing. Based on an analysis of several Riverside and Chandler mini results, we realized the vast majority of players cashing were non-members. Again we want to encourage membership not only because of the financial effect is has but because a larger club shows inclusion and a united front to the disc gold community outside of Tulsa.

The Board decided at our last meeting to make the following changes to our payout schedules. These affect non-members only:

Non-members payout will be reduced by 20% with the funds going directly to a course improvement fund.

Ace Pots hit by non-members will be reduced by 50% with the other 50% going directly back into the Ace Pot. As long as the Ace pot is at least $100.00, the non-member will receive 50% of the Ace Pot less $20.00 for a 1-year membership. If the Ace Pot is $99.99 or less, the non-member will receive 100% of the Ace Pot less $20.00 for a 1-year membership.

We are going to try this for the month of September. This will only affect non-members who cash. We will analyze and discuss the impact at our next meeting and decide if we will continue this program in the future.

The TDSA thanks you in advance for your patience as we try this new approach. Please consider joining the TDSA. Memberships are available at our mini�s or by contacting any TD or Administrator.

The TDSA board met Monday night and voted to stop deducting 20% from non TDSA member payouts. Per the previous announcement this was an experiment during September only.

The reason for the change is due to the amount of work it takes to identify current members at minis and possible confusion during payouts.

The board did vote to continue the reduced ace pot for non-members.

If the ace pot is $100.00 or more and a non-member hits an ace, that player will receive 1/2 the ace pot minus their $20.00 annual membership fee.

The remaining 1/2 will stay in the ace pot.

If the ace pot is under $100.00, they the non-member will receive all the ace pot less their $20.00 annual membership fee.

We sincerely encourage all local players to join the TDSA. The cost is low at $20.00 and you receive a Pro Boss, a metal tag identifying you as a current TDSA member, a mini and Wayne's famous list of 17 benefits.

The PDGA recently announced that any memberships sold from October 1st on will count for the current year and the next year. So if you join on October 1st 2010, your memberships is good for the rest of 2010 and 2011.

The TDSA board voted to enact the same policy as an additional benefit to becoming a member and to align ourselves with the PDGA policy.

Thanks for your continued support. The Administrators for the TDSA have only your best interest in mind as we continue to promote disc sports in our area.

Big surprise. A whole 2 week trial.:confused:

Wouldn't want you all to do anything that would require you to do anything extra for the money you make off each mini.

I know there is So much work to run a mini now, it would be a shame that all of you have to take an extra 2-3 minutes to help the club for the future. Its very clear now that the TDs run their minis for themselves not the club. The one TD that pushed the hardest against this is the same one that hasn't run a mini for the club in months, why? That might require he actually do something. I mean do something other than complain about everything. Because he has perfected that one.

You all talk of hosting a major in the future, improving the courses and equipment. But when it comes down to it, the truth is you don't want anything to change.
And thats fine, because it won't. You'll still be where you are 5 years form now, still having the same meetings and discussing the same things you have been for the last 5 years, while our courses and equiment continue to decline. After 2006 Worlds, the club had over 19K? Ask them how much they have now, look around and ask yourself, what have they done with our courses since 2006? The courses haven't been touched and I would bet that there is less than 10k, including the value of any inventory. Why would it be like that? Because they continue to spend more than they are taking in. Don't belevie me? If your a member, ask to see the numbers, you have that right.

The last meeting I attended, the topics of dicsussion were some of the same ones from years previous. The only group that has actually accomplished what they proposed is the ODGF. While the TDSA meetings consist of the same topics meeting after meeting, each members upcoming tournaments and asking how much the club can sponsor them and everyone getting their minis on the schedule.

I even asked 5 years ago that each TD submit a mini sheet that would match what they are collecting for the club. Well guess what? 5 years later, they still will not do it. Instead you have someone like Joyle Deering showing up and grabing some cash out of his pocket and saying, "here is what I have". Like I said, they don't want any change that might require a little extra from them or ANYthing that might reduce their mini income.

Its a shame that last week in OKC Will rogers and Dolese looked better than McCLure.
Until the TDs that control the voting power among the Administrators take an attitude different than "What's in it for me?" Nothing will change, nothing will be improved and the next major they host was the one they had in 2006.

I know from reading this site that there are way more non-members on here than members. I sure hope they read this so they get to see BOTH sides of it.

I have a question for the Administrators......................

What have you done since 2006 worlds, other than the clean up form the ice storm to improve or maintain any of the courses in Tulsa?
What have you done to prepare the club for a major in the future?

If any non-members would like to have something posted to the TDSA board or has questions about the club's activites, you can email me at [email protected] Just send it to me and I will post it.

I rarely disagree with you Wise but you're way off base on this one.

I am really suprised by your post, all of them actually.

We all work hard to make the disc golf scene here the best it can be.

Your comparison of Dolese and Will Rogers to McClure is a million miles off base and you know it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I look forward to all the non-members emailing you their post about how the 20% deduction was such a great idea!!

The fact is overall opinion was it was to cumbersome to search every player on the TDSA roster to see if they are current, then transfer that over to payout..

We are working on other ideas to raise funds. I am not sure there is a lot of interest in another major event yet...

And your statements are way off. You know as well as I do that it was not difficult. Fact be known, we have less than 50 active members and at most minis you can count them on one hand. I proved that with the numbers. Numbers don't lie buddy. 90% of the roster is in-active. Must be too big a project for anyone to take on.:confused:

And YES Will Rogers looked better than McClure! Not saying it is a better course but to the eye it doesn't look worse than McClure..

You're right, I'm entitled to my opinion and I have the right to voice it.
The current board has become a stagnant pond, in my opinion. Nothing new, no plans for improvement, no plans for maintinance of courses, no plans for future expenditures, no accounting of the minis, no annual budget. The one item you all have done is to create a membership packet consisting of a disc, a tag and a mini and that only took all of you a little more than 6 months to decide on.

I'd bet right now, the board could not provide the membership any written plans for the future or budgets for the future or past. Since 2006 the club has advance about 0. Sure we have more courses but that was the result of Worlds.

Mike, what has the club done in the last 4 years?
Are you disputing my claim that the club had over 19K and now less than 10K?
Down almost 50% from Worlds and no improvements or maintinance on any courses.
Were did the money go? How much money has the club lost running tournaments?
How much has the club lost investing the members money in private courses?

The only real activity is those new admins or Tds jockying for courses and dates on the schedule.

As a board, feel free to remove me from any and all emails, schedules and contact information but I'm sure it'll take at least 6 months of meetings to come to a conclusion.

Mike, you may want to re-think your statement that it was changed because it was too difficult.

The TDSA current list
22 lifetime members (about 8 of those actually still play)
1 honorary membership
17 - current 2010 or 2011 members.

Yea, you're right, that is just a list that is WAY too big to check.


Like I said, numbers don't lie.


On top of that, just so the members know, now the $2,500 per year that could have been raised will no continue to go to the TDS profit on plastic, with nothing going to the courses.
Same ol, same ol.......................

Members, you got screwed again.....................your membership is worth about as much as the swag pack they give you and thats about it.

You're just being grumpy and blowing things out of proportion...

I am too busy to respond line by line, but you are wrong...

Now, go ahead and repost another two pager asking me to show you where your wrong.

Save your time, sorry we didn't use your idea....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_m-1u8x8ieQY/SwBAeZOManI/AAAAAAAAAY8/NNqlzZPoIVI/s400/39RockTheBoat.jpg

I think there are a lot of individuals involved in the TDSA that give A LOT to the sport. Collectively as a club, I would say the TDSA, as Dave has stated, hasn't done much. I have plenty of other opinions that would probably be more deconstructive than constructive so I will keep those to myself. I think instead of spending days and days going back and forth on issues, the best solution would be to start asking some questions, what can we do as a club to improve Tulsa disc golf? Lets all try to work together and think of ways to make our courses and event better. Wise had an idea of a way to bring in some extra revenue for the club, but it didn't go over well, for whatever reasons. Lets not stop there, more ideas, more trial periods, etc.

This isn't about pointing fingers and stating rights and wrongs, its about making out community a better place to play disc golf. Let's do it.

You're just being grumpy and blowing things out of proportion...

I am too busy to respond line by line, but you are wrong...

Now, go ahead and repost another two pager asking me to show you where your wrong.

Save your time, sorry we didn't use your idea....


No, don't show me where I'm wrong, just answer my member questions that I asked of you, an admin. You gave me that right, when I paid my $20. Thats the only thing I do have over a non-member in addition to a swag pack.

Was I wrong about the money?
Was I wrong about a budget?
Was I wrong about the investment in a private course?
Was I wrong about the TD accounting of money?
Was I wrong about the club account being half or less than half of what is was after Worlds?
Was I wrong about the current membership?


Those are all yes or no answers, that shouldn't take you too long.


And just so you know, its not the fact that it was MY idea, its the fact that the current board has no plans for the future. If they do, please post them. As it is now, the most to come out of the club in the last 3 years is a membership package that costs the club about what they take in. memebrship has not grown, i proved that above and you have taken any membership money we gained previously and now its a 0.
As Paul said, if it were not not for others stepping up and doing things that the club should be doing, it would be worse than it is now.

Paul, it has just been proven, that any idea, that may create some work on part of a TD will not be accepted well. They like like it is now and why wouldn't they?
They don't have to provide any accounting of their minis to the club. Which in my opinion stinks to high he11. It has and will remain, "the good ol boys club"

Until this all changes, I will encourage and direct any donations, fundraisers or course improvents through the ODGF.

We are working on other ideas to raise funds. I am not sure there is a lot of interest in another major event yet...

I've heard that for 5 years now...................and nothing.
Not one fundraising idea in over 5 years. Ooops, sorry I was wrong on that one. The TDSA has had several fundraisers, all of which were for tournaments, of which, most were not club tournaments.
and I don't think that one of the club tournaments has turned any type of profit back to the club.

Raise funds for what? More tournament sponsorship?

As for the major, yes it would be best to wait until the year of the event to try and raise the money. Sure hope you have another Rotan on board or you're screwed. But I doubt we will have one, that would require much more work than checking a list.

I missed acouple of pages, updated numbers

[QUOTE=twoputtok;1438158]
The TDSA current list
79 lifetime members (about 15 of those actually still play)
8 honorary membership
61 - current 2010 or 2011 members.
QUOTE]

So you have a list, including lifetime, honory and current at 148.
of that 148, about 75 still play and less than 5% will be at any given mini.

Waaaaa!!!......waaaaa!!!!......waaaaa!!!!:p

The reason for the change is due to the amount of work it takes to identify current members at minis and possible confusion during payouts.

The board did vote to continue the reduced ace pot for non-members.



Uh, Mike, you keep the ace pot portion but not the other? Why is that, wouldn't you still have to do all the extra work to look them up to see if they are a member? And then divide the ace pot by half.
Isn't that another 2 minutes you can't spare?

Here is my opinion...................
The TDs don't wan't it because that 20% reduction affects their profits on plastic from the non-member Ams. Especially at Riverside and Chandler.

Waaaaa!!!......waaaaa!!!!......waaaaa!!!!:p

See folks, prime example of your administrator representaiton.
There is your answer. Just tell everyone that the complainers are just sour grapes and hope they go away.

They don't want change, that would affect thier precious time and their wallet.

When I get the time later today I'll respond to all your crap.

Until then I suggest you think about throwing your hat in as poster child for "Mamby-Pamby" land.:cool:

I'll be throwing my hat with the ODGF. I'm done throwing money away with the TDSA.

Please do respond, I'd be curious on how you are going to attemp to answer my questions. That is IF you answer them. More than likely it will just be another one of your personal attacks to draw attention away from the issues of the club.

I have not personaly attacked anyone on this issue, just the TDSA administrators as a whole. All of my questions are ligitimate. They all deal with the Boards current and past performance or lack there of.

While this was all prompted by the premature removal of the proposal, it has gone to a different level now. The proposal is dead, plain and simple. I can deal with that, the board voted on it.
But with this action, I now have several questions for the TDSA, all of which, as a PAID MEMBER I would like answered. And the TDSA owes me those answers as a member of the club.

Be careful guys. Your on "The Road to Norman"

Sorry Jake, but when I feel they are acting to serve themselves over the membership, then its time to bring it in the open.

Understood Dave.

I said about 3 or 4 years ago, on the discussion board, that I would support discgolf and not discgolf clubs. That was a very unpopular thing to say at the time and I was ripped to shreads.

I recently had a change of heart and decided to inquire about TDSA membership... because it appeared from an outsider looking in that they had everything in order. So this has been an interesting read to say the least.

I only caution because the conflict set us back several years.

Hope a solution can be found. Peace

Save your $20 and buy a kid a couple of discs.

How about something like a World Biggest Disc Golf Weekend.

This could be used as an Annual Fundraiser with All of the proceeds going to course improvement. ???

This also promotes disc golf growth as a whole and can be used to get more people playing and more members as well ???

John Houck and Rick Rothstein like the concept....
They have run these events very successfully for years,
Except the proceeds obviously go to different benficiaries

Comments, Constructive criticism, Bueller... :)
Thanks for your positive imput. :P

Dale Patterson

I told you it was a bad idea for you to leave the TDSA board of directors post. :eek:

NTs and Super Tour events have taken their toll with the club funds the same as they do with every club that takes them on.:mad:

While our sport may need Pro players it, and they need funding sources outside of local clubs We are 1 NT and 2 super-tours away from flat out, as the added cash requirements and lack of community support outside of the disc golf club make fund raising darn near imposable.
I love our sport but we cannot fundraise like the PGA and USGA!

First off, I'm not an administrator of the TDSA, so my statement does not in any way reflect the views of the TDSA administration.

Secondly, if anyone wants to see my book with a list of the minis i've run plus my accounting, they are always welcome. I just ask to use common sense and not demand to see it five minutes before a mini when everyone is showing up and trying to enter.

Thirdly, I have been trying to be creative at my minis to think of fundraising ideas to help transform Haikey back to the prominent gold-level course it was before the ice storm and the playgrounds. I did bubble gum mulligans in August and I have been doing raffle ticket mulligans in September. I picked three mulligans for $3 simply to round the entry fee to a multiple of $5, regardless of the division, given that most folks enter the ace pot and CTP. I have been giving away two discs plus one cash/membership prize at every mini this month. So far I have gotten two people renewed in addition to three new members as a result. Am I asking for reimbursement? No. So to answer one question.. yes, TDSA members are working on finding new ways to be creative about fundraising.

Fourthly, your signature. Don't change anything, it's t-o-o much work. :-P

oh yea since dave left the tdsa admins everything has gone to crap

bulls***

grow up dave
its just an idea of yours that is not the greatest
if i would have gone a whole year with your 20% idea then i would have raised about 150 i dont see where your 2500 dollar comes from
originally it was half the ace pot to the non member then the other half to the club all kinds of people did not think that was right so we changed that to make it fair to the members that come out every week and put there dollar in for the ace pot and give them the same chance to make their money back

I dont hide anything from the club
and I dont steal from the club
I have every mini sheet since i have been running hunter
and I also put a lot of time keeping hunter trash picked up and trees trimed and so on

that is pretty low basicly accusing joel and the club admins of stealing

even for you

oh and yes we as aclub have put out a lot of money donating to other events 100 here 100 there we have also helped run 2 nt events for pros not our pros but pros
that is where a lot of the clubs money has gone we are not wasting money
what about the tee pads on chandler
etc

I know there is So much work to run a mini now, it would be a shame that all of you have to take an extra 2-3 minutes to help the club for the future. Its very clear now that the TDs run their minis for themselves not the club. The one TD that pushed the hardest against this is the same one that hasn't run a mini for the club in months, why? That might require he actually do something. I mean do something other than complain about everything. Because he has perfected that one.

How would you actually know how much work it is to run a mini of 50 or more players Dave? You can't even run minis on a regular basis at your home course. You don't run them on weekends because you're always at somebody else's event. You'll never match my mini record over the years chump.


I know from reading this site that there are way more non-members on here than members. I sure hope they read this so they get to see BOTH sides of it.

That's right buddy. Make sure you tell them BOTH sides.

Two one day Duff events brought in over $400 into the TDSA. I don't think Duff was actually obliged to charge the $2 TDSA weekend fee but he did. Is he only thinking about himself?

Vs

You that takes the free promotion, the exclusive weekend spot, buys his plastic at TDSA cost, and then uses it's members and a few administrators to run it for you with absolutely "zip" coming back? Must be nice to have your cake and eat someone elses too.

And don't tell me your Rose Bowl equated like the Ice Bowl or United Way.:cool:

Even Chandlerstock carries in over $500 in camping fees directly into the course.:p

How about something like a World Biggest Disc Golf Weekend.

This could be used as an Annual Fundraiser with All of the proceeds going to course improvement. ???

This also promotes disc golf growth as a whole and can be used to get more people playing and more members as well ???

John Houck and Rick Rothstein like the concept....
They have run these events very successfully for years,
Except the proceeds obviously go to different benficiaries

Comments, Constructive criticism, Bueller... :)
Thanks for your positive imput. :P

Dale Patterson

OK I got it Everybody is ****** off.
Please take it off the board or to PM land.

Sooo..... Anybody have anything constructive to say ????
Response to the idea posted ???
Your ideas you are brave enough to post ???

D.P.

normally Dale I would not say anything . You know this but when someone basicly accuses me of stealing I have a problem with that

Be careful guys. Your on "The Road to Norman"

The TDSA has been keeping the Tulsa Disc Golf Scene going for year and years now. They aren't going away. They are a good club and properly serve the functions of a local disc golf club. We have weekly minis, we have tournaments, we have a board that we can bring issues to, we have a board that is willing to try out ideas and not just shoot them down instantly. I say we as one of the "current" members, who plans on renewing his membership for another couple years in 2011.

Speaking as a member of the TDSA and a founding board member of the OKDGF, we should all be doing our part to make tulsa's disc golf scene the best it can be. That is the reason why Dr. Jim, Kyle Wilkes, and myself are trying to raise funds. We are trying to bring in money from people inside and outside the disc golf community to help with course developement and growth of the sport through schools, clinics, after school programs, etc.

Just because we have some discussions does not mean we are on the "Road to Norman," and just because one TDSA member raises some rather important questions, doesn't mean we are anywhere near the events you are implying. This is about the people in tulsa figuring out how to make the sport better and bigger.

OK I got it Everybody is ****** off.
Please take it off the board or to PM land.

Sooo..... Anybody have anything constructive to say ????
Response to the idea posted ???
Your ideas you are brave enough to post ???

D.P.

Yes Dale.

Not everything is "Doom and Gloom" in the TDSA as Wise would want everybody to think.

Everyone has a function!!

Dave Wise - driving force behind Centennial Park - very nice addition to the local golf course selection

Bill Myers - Doing a hell of a job with minis and raising money for Haikey creek!

TDSA - Running events, holding meetings, discussing local issues, running minis (who cares if the TDs make some profit or not? personally they should be getting something for their time and efforts)

Local TDs like Jerry Stacey, Mike Treat, Slim, wayne forest etc. etc. the list goes on - they clean up trash on their course, constantly think of ways to make their course better, and they show up on time to run their minis on a regular basis, lets make these people know their hard work and effort is appreciated.

OKDGF - Three guys who have a big vision to raise funds from outside sources and help support the disc golf community through various activites like course developement, clinics, amateur player sponsorship, and learn to play programs.

Volunteers and members - Guys like Brad Hoi and the Bartons that are always helping out to make an event better or fix a basket or build new teepads.


The way I see it, we have a wide variety of people that love disc golf here in tulsa and want it to grow. We just need to all continue to work together.

That being said, if Dave Wise has some questions about the TDSA or some issues he is concerned, why is he being assaulted for asking some questions he feels are of a serious nature?

Personally, on a sidenote, I think 20 bux is a steal to have someone to run organized events for a year long. Its like a league fee, etc. And 20 dollars beats any other league fees I know of.

normally Dale I would not say anything . You know this but when someone basicly accuses me of stealing I have a problem with that

I understand, I work hard to keep the finances in order,
even though no one is looking over my shoulder at the books.

I really believe Daves point is :
What are the long term goals of the TDSA and how are we going to get there.
I believe there are some. For example, PDGA Major ???

How do we pay for it ???, If funds are consistantly going down this must change !!!
When do we start ??? Tommorrow never comes.

These GOALS should be widely published so the members can help drive them.
Updates on that progress on them should also be published.
People have to have a vision to be inspired and motivated.

I am out for a while, LTR.
Thanks
D.P.

No, don't show me where I'm wrong, just answer my member questions that I asked of you, an admin. You gave me that right, when I paid my $20. Thats the only thing I do have over a non-member in addition to a swag pack.

Was I wrong about the money? Yes
Was I wrong about a budget? Yes
Was I wrong about the investment in a private course? yes
Was I wrong about the TD accounting of money? Yes
Was I wrong about the club account being half or less than half of what is was after Worlds? Yes
Was I wrong about the current membership? Not sure what you meant


Those are all yes or no answers, that shouldn't take you too long.


And just so you know, its not the fact that it was MY idea, its the fact that the current board has no plans for the future. If they do, please post them. As it is now, the most to come out of the club in the last 3 years is a membership package that costs the club about what they take in. memebrship has not grown, i proved that above and you have taken any membership money we gained previously and now its a 0.
As Paul said, if it were not not for others stepping up and doing things that the club should be doing, it would be worse than it is now.

Dave told me that as a member he deserves answers to his questions. I happen to agree.

My answers are next to his questions above, sorry I do not know how to bold my responses.

The TDSA is one of the best ran clubs in the country. Since 06 Worlds we have sponsered two NT's, 3 Super Tours and multiple B Tiers.

We have the same amount of assets that we have always had, either in cash or baskets.

We already discussed a budget for 2011 so we can plan on what expenditures we can make. I wanted to wait until after September which is the end of the mini season to complete it so we have a total revenue picture.

We have already discussed course improvements we would like to make and you will see some of those before the Oklahoma Open.

Our club is transperant, motivated and effective.

We are investigating the possibility of posting the minutes from our monthly board meeting on the club website so members can see what is going on, who voted for what etc.

We now have a new course at Riverside with zero TDSA money involved. I negotiated long and hard so we now have the old baskets and tee signs from Riverside for our use.

There is a new course at Chandler with tee pads. One of the projects will be to add tee signs and fix pads on the old course.

The club has been involved with demonstrations and utilized our True Growth program to put two new courses in the ground.

We developed a new membership package and drive to increase membership. This has proven to be a big hit and we will continue to enhance the swag bag over time.

There are 4 nightly mini's each week and usually a club event on the weekend.

We offer night golf and other fun formats.

Due to the club's focus on growth the Tulsa area continues to produce new top notch golfers. We have never seen the # of Tulsa players traveling to NT's and the USDGC than we have now.

The TDSA is focused on growth and inclusion. We never turn down an opportunity to grow and show off our sport.

My final comment deals with the TD's. It is way out of line to say these people, me included, are only out to make a buck. In the old days I would sell a bunch of plastic to casuals at Riverside. As God is my witness I may have sold 10 disc this year. Jerry Stacey at Hunter, whoever is running Chandler that week, do not sell any disc. To say the Admins voted down the 20% plan due to our own selfish interest is very insulting.

On a good night Jerry has 15 ams at Hunter. That equals a $60.00 payout, his cut is less than $25.00 for sitting out there for 3 hours, posting the results, making sure he has pencils, scorecards and everything else that is needed.

These are hard working volunteers spending their own time to support the TDSA and make sure the sport grows and players have ample opportunities to play.

Are we perfect? Of course not. But we are focused and dedicated to doing the right thing for all club members and the casual disc golfers in our community.

Again, this club is miles ahead of most clubs. Please continue to support us and give us your ideas so we can continue to provide the most, and best disc golf experience in the area.

Thats all I have to say..

oh yea since dave left the tdsa admins everything has gone to crap

bulls***

grow up dave
its just an idea of yours that is not the greatest
if i would have gone a whole year with your 20% idea then i would have raised about 150 i dont see where your 2500 dollar comes from
originally it was half the ace pot to the non member then the other half to the club all kinds of people did not think that was right so we changed that to make it fair to the members that come out every week and put there dollar in for the ace pot and give them the same chance to make their money back

I dont hide anything from the club
and I dont steal from the club
I have every mini sheet since i have been running hunter
and I also put a lot of time keeping hunter trash picked up and trees trimed and so on

that is pretty low basicly accusing joel and the club admins of stealing

even for you

oh and yes we as aclub have put out a lot of money donating to other events 100 here 100 there we have also helped run 2 nt events for pros not our pros but pros
that is where a lot of the clubs money has gone we are not wasting money
what about the tee pads on chandler
etc

I didn't say it went to crap when I left. I wasn't picking on any one Td just the system that you all support. Fact: I proposed years ago the Tds have an accounting with every mini they turned in, that was shot down. Why is that Jerry? If everyone is on the up and up, then turn in an accounting. Truth is, all of you should be doing that for transparency for the members and the accounting of the club's funds, which by the way, belong to the membership.
Yes, some of the Tds work on their courses but most of the time cost are straight out of their pocket, why?

Yes, the club paid for concret at Chandler, first course improvemnt since 2066, why?

Fundraising ideas? since 2006, nothing from the TDSA board, why?

Sorry, Jerry but it has been bad decisions followed by no action.
Tell me Jerry why was it that club couldn't get a promesary noted signed for several months and it took me one day?

Please tell me Jerry, in detail, just what fundraisers has the club done directlly for course improvement over the last 5 years?
How many CLUB tournaments have we had and what was the P&L on those? Again, this is something that should be provided to the members, and again I remind you it's their money.

I've already stated the the proposal is dead, it was voted on by the elected administrators of the club.

Yes, your course may have only raised $150 over a year but then again, your course is the least contributor of all the coursess that have minis.
Like I said earlier, numbers don't lie. So instead of you trying to help the club raise extra money, you'd rather take the stance, its not worth my time. Is that what your implying?

How about something like a World Biggest Disc Golf Weekend.

This could be used as an Annual Fundraiser with All of the proceeds going to course improvement. ???

This also promotes disc golf growth as a whole and can be used to get more people playing and more members as well ???

John Houck and Rick Rothstein like the concept....
They have run these events very successfully for years,
Except the proceeds obviously go to different benficiaries

Comments, Constructive criticism, Bueller... :)
Thanks for your positive imput. :P

Dale Patterson

Bump ...

if players and members dont realize it ,
the am worlds provided a very good expeiriance to may ams.
the local club and dedicated individuals made that work.
the club invested what was needed to have that event.
their return was great to say the least.
if the club had to pay for all the help in hours and equipment made available there would not have been a posative bank account.
the admins in tulsa are some of the most dedicated people i know.
their representation is valuable to all members.
the expeiiences of the nts and supertours have depleted funds because the requirements had to be met.
the OKDGF exists because the admins saw a need and helped in the creation.
the men/andwomen who volunteer their time at any capacity need only our appriciation.

Jerry and all TDs, this was not an accusation of missappropration of funds, this was an accusation of the failure to properly account for payments to the club to AVOID the accusation. The failure to properly account to the members that their funds are being spent correctly and in the interests of the membership.
Without the accounting, you would have no proof. Correct?
You buy insurance to protect yourself, why not provide accounting to do the same?


Mike, while you did answer each question, you simply stated I was wrong with no explination as to why you're right.

Lets start with the account from post worlds to date......................
The account was at around 19K, right?
The account is at now what, not including the outstanding debt that may not be collected?

Budget, you stated that you have plans for a budget....well, could we please see the clubs budget for the last 3 years? If not, why not?

Did or did the club not make a sizeable investment of club funds that may not be collectable?

Do the current Tds or any past Tds regulary submit accounting of their minis?

Current membership.....I was implying that the current active membership, while recently improved, is any larger than it was 5 years ago? I say it is not.


While the TDSA is overall a great club and has done many great things for disc golf localy and regionaly, I feel that the administrators have become complacent over the last 5 years, since Worlds. With the funds that we had after the event, we should have been able to be years ahead of where we are now. I had hoped that with new people coming into the club that they could carry over the momentun that we had built up. Sad to say, I just feel that with the fat bank account, the motivation to grow further, went by the wayside.

In addition to that, the NTs were not a good business decision. I think I would be hard pressed to find one current administrator that will argue that they were good for the club. I stated at that time, it was a bad idea, from a business standpoint. If this club is not going to watch over the members money with a business attitude, then we have a problem way bigger than complacency.

Now here we are 5 years later with the same overall membership, less than half the bank account we had. Our courses are in need of repair, with no funding plans or funds. Face it...................little, other than outside of the normal activies, has anything been done to get our club to the next level or maintain our current courses.

This is my opinion and I'm entitled to have it, even if you don't agree with it.

Those are all yes or no answers, that shouldn't take you too long.




You said all I had to do was give yes or no answers...

I think I went above and beyond that.

But, I forgot about the Ice Bowl, United Way and we saved over 100,000 puppies and kittens...

How about that???

You said all I had to do was give yes or no answers...

I think I went above and beyond that.

But, I forgot about the Ice Bowl, United Way and we saved over 100,000 puppies and kittens...

How about that???

I don't think you have gone far enough...........all those are valid questions that you should be able to provide an answer to.

And since when did it become the club's responsibility to support multiple chairites? I understand the need to work with the community but how about working with the Chamber, the city, the Sports commission, entities that will bring benefits to the club. Sorry but the club account has continued to shrink every year since worlds, with no visible benefits, other than 18 tee pads. That tells me there is more going out than coming in. These are things the membership should be aware of.

Did or did the club not make a sizeable investment of club funds that may not be collectable?

I would agree. But I would also say that several people made a sizeable investment in Copperhead Canyon with a $350 basket sponsorship initially as well. Obviously a lesson of just because you build it does not mean THEY will come.

Do the current Tds or any past Tds regulary submit accounting of their minis?

If they post their results on the board then yes they do. It's up to you to do the math. I know Joyle doesn't have internet access though but for you to infer that stealing is going on then why don't you go ahead and call out Wayne because he very seldom ever posts his Nite Flight results. If we all took lie detector tests would that make you happy? Just turning in a mini sheet would not keep someone who wanted to steal from stealing as he could adjust player turnout just as easy on paper.

Current membership.....I was implying that the current active membership, while recently improved, is any larger than it was 5 years ago? I say it is not.

This is a transient sport. Which means people come and go for various reasons. Some end up in jail, some get married, some move away, while others just lose interest and find better things to do. It's not the Administrators fault. I imagine in less than two years Penny will be the TD at Centennial because even you will grow tired of it if you haven't already.

the NTs were not a good business decision.

Oh, you think??? Why didn't you say anything LARGE back then because most of the admins that did such a great job with the Am Worlds were still there when that vote for the 1st one was made. The way I remember it being sold was that nobody else in this region wanted to do it and Tulsa would get respectable browne points with the PDGA if we took it.

This is my opinion and I'm entitled to have it, even if you don't agree with it.

If I thought you knew what you were talking about then that would make us both wrong.:cool:

Originally Posted by twoputtok http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1438226#post1438226)
Did or did the club not make a sizeable investment of club funds that may not be collectable?

I would agree. But I would also say that several people made a sizeable investment in Copperhead Canyon with a $350 basket sponsorship initially as well. Obviously a lesson of just because you build it does not mean THEY will come. I was one of those investments. That's why i was strongly against the one being questioned now. In addition, the club did not make a sizable investment in that course.

Do the current Tds or any past Tds regulary submit accounting of their minis?

If they post their results on the board then yes they do. It's up to you to do the math though. No, its your responsibility as a TD. You are the one handling the members monies. And its the Admin's responsibility to make sure you are doing it correctly. You have a fiduciary responsibilty to provide records.

Current membership.....I was implying that the current active membership, while recently improved, is any larger than it was 5 years ago? I say it is not.

This is a transient sport. Which means people come and go for various reasons. Some end up in jail, some get married, some move away, while others just lose interest and find better things to do. It's not the Administrators fault. I imagine in less than two years Penny will be the TD at Centennial because even you will grow tired of it if you haven't already.

the NTs were not a good business decision.

Oh, you think??? Why didn't you say anything LARGE back then because most of the admins that did such a great job with the Am Worlds were still there when that vote for the 1st one was made. The way I remember it being sold was that nobody else in this region wanted to do it and Tulsa would get respectable browne points with the PDGA if we took it. I had pleanty to say about it, just ask Wayne ot Treat. I was not quiet about my opinion of it.
I said it would be a money loser from day one. Remember, Wayne took the first one to keep the club from losing money and I'm pretty sure he lost his *** on it. He could elaborate on that one.

This is my opinion and I'm entitled to have it, even if you don't agree with it.

since when did it become the club's responsibility to support multiple chairites?.

Since when did it become the club's responsibility to support high school bands from Owasso?:cool:

I didn't say it went to crap when I left. I wasn't picking on any one Td just the system that you all support. Fact: I proposed years ago the Tds have an accounting with every mini they turned in, that was shot down. Why is that Jerry? If everyone is on the up and up, then turn in an accounting. Truth is, all of you should be doing that for transparency for the members and the accounting of the club's funds, which by the way, belong to the membership.
Yes, some of the Tds work on their courses but most of the time cost are straight out of their pocket, why?

Yes, the club paid for concret at Chandler, first course improvemnt since 2006, why?

Gee redesigning Riverside and reworking Haikey don't count? How about all the man hours that Mohawk has eaten and it still looks bad in spots? of course then there is the new 18 at Chandler that the pads went in on.
Hello we have been doing maintainence and repair all along as well as new work. We just haven't got around to building that new Gold course for the pros to play

Fundraising ideas? since 2006, nothing from the TDSA board, why?

Oh sorry, I thought 2 bucks a head off the top of the last spring flings series, for course improvements and maintaince was fund raising

Sorry, Jerry but it has been bad decisions followed by no action.
Tell me Jerry why was it that club couldn't get a promesary noted signed for several months and it took me one day?

Please tell me Jerry, in detail, just what fundraisers has the club done directlly for course improvement over the last 5 years?

2010 Spring fling championship Series TD Martin Norris

How many CLUB tournaments have we had and what was the P&L on those? Again, this is something that should be provided to the members, and again I remind you it's their money.

I turned in my P&L on the 2010 series

I've already stated the the proposal is dead, it was voted on by the elected administrators of the club.

Yes, your course may have only raised $150 over a year but then again, your course is the least contributor of all the coursess that have minis.
Like I said earlier, numbers don't lie. So instead of you trying to help the club raise extra money, you'd rather take the stance, its not worth my time. Is that what your implying?

We each do what we can, if not for the Flights events muligans the OO would have sucked the coffers dry 2 years ago Maybe we should sell Christmas trees and Fireworks :D

Well perhaps the TDSA should align with the USDGC and start running the OO every other year.

That is like a two or three thousand dollar tax bill hung around it’s neck every year just to break even though a lot comes from the good work of Forest and Big Nic.

I know everybody loves the PDGA but if you look at the attendance numbers around here lately it’s been like they are selling VHS in a DVD or Blue-Ray market.

I think it sucks if the TDSA has to buy a bunch of players packs and get stuck with the left-overs if the turnout is low.

Perhaps the event could be out-sourced so the TDSA more on course improvement and a possible Worlds in the years to come

Well perhaps the TDSA should align with the USDGC and start running the OO every other year.

That is like a two or three thousand dollar tax bill hung around it�s neck every year just to break even though a lot comes from the good work of Forest and Big Nic.

I know everybody loves the PDGA but if you look at the attendance numbers around here lately it�s been like they are selling VHS in a DVD or Blue-Ray market.

I think it sucks if the TDSA has to buy a bunch of players packs and get stuck with the left-overs if the turnout is low.

Perhaps the event could be out-sourced so the TDSA more on course improvement and a possible Worlds in the years to come

yeah right, like some big hearted person wants to take on a 3K loss every year :rolleyes:
The OO is ours because there is no way to make money on it as it stands:( and we will continue it till the attendance goes to zero or we run out of money to do it.:confused: but it allows us to showcase Tulsa once a year and collect those valuable ;) brownie points with the PDGA :rolleyes:

Is it pride or are we just doomed to blow all of our money just so we can keep up with the Jone'ess.:(

I think what Wise is saying is very relevant. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a TDSA member asking questions about the future growth of the TDSA. Quite frankly I doubt there are many members who really care about the growth of our club. I believe that once the AM Jam grows more it could result in some huge revenue for the club. Maybe if we host AM Worlds again that could boost our bank account as well. If we do host another AM Worlds I will hook up credit card processing again. If I remember right it generated close to $6k for the week. In fact if either the TDSA or the Okie disc golf foundation needs a non-profit merchant account I can set that up as well...just an idea.

I did like the idea of taking a fraction of a non-members mini payout and shooting it directly to the club. If we did this for a year the money generated would be pretty significant not to mention new member growth.

On another note I need to get a mini scheduled for Redhawk and BlackHawk. The acepot out there is around or over $100. It's been that way for at least 2 years. I predict hole 1 or hole 17 on Red will take home the cash.

well Dave
I will have all my records with me for this year on wednesday

I will have to get the rest of the records out of storage. if you or anyone else is accusing me of not being honest!!!!!


so come play my course this wednesday and u and anybody else can come see my records and I bet I can get all the bank records for the club if you are that worried WE have nothing to hide so the books are open and by the way I will post my address before the next meeting and whoever wants to come to the meeting can come it is an open meeting so whoever is woried come to the meeting I will prove the club has nothing to hide

I or the club have no problem with anyone asking questions or if they want to see the books. It's the way you approached your concerns. You accussed instead of asking. We tried your idea, it didn't work. Get over it! The club is looking into other fund raisers and we are open to ideas. We will try ideas, some with succeed and some will fail. Maybe try a more diplomatic approach and you might get a better response.

HOWS THAT WISE

oh and where is the accounting for Centennial that is the players money as well right
but I am not worried about that I trust YOU

Oh and I will figure out how many man hours Carrie and I have picking up trash and trimming limbs and moving baskets not only on My course but all the other courses I have worked on and We will see just how much money I actually make (yea right) on the minis I run.

I guarantee the money it cost me outweighs the small profit on disc sales (if any)

Owasso has only 1 course to maintain not multiple courses like Tulsa and we don't get any funds from the city (unlike Owasso) TDSA has to provide all funds for every course

See how easy that was Jerry? All I had to do was imply that something could possibly be wrong for everyone to go on the defensive. I never asked to see the financials, I only asked about the overall balance from then to now. When if all Tds had been giving these to the board, you wouldn't have had to respond, Treat wouldn't have had to been so vague. He could have dispelled any accusation within minutes.

Jerry, if you had an employee who collected cash from customers, wouldn't you want an invoce to match the collected cash?

As is stands now, you will have to get all of your records, then contact the club for copies of the bank records, then match them all together. What a nightmare, it shouldn't be that way.

I have no doubts that yours and others TD records would match, but all of you would have to go through a major records re-creation.

Wouldn't it be better for all the members if that information was available to them through the board if they should have a question or concern?

Don't think I am trying to bring down a club or individual, if I didn't care about the club or disc golf around Tulsa I wouldn't have even brought it up or ever made this 20% proposal or any proposal to the club. That wasn't my first one and **** sure not the first one that was shot down. But I don't think things should go on the way they are right now.

I know the answer to all of my questions, thats why I asked specific questions. I just wanted to see what the reponse would be. About what I expected, Treat danced around the questions and I stiil haven't see a straight answer.

oh and where is the accounting for Centennial that is the players money as well right
but I am not worried about that I trust YOU

Oh and I will figure out how many man hours Carrie and I have picking up trash and trimming limbs and moving baskets not only on My course but all the other courses I have worked on and We will see just how much money I actually make (yea right) on the minis I run.

I guarantee the money it cost me outweighs the small profit on disc sales (if any)

Owasso has only 1 course to maintain not multiple courses like Tulsa and we don't get any funds from the city (unlike Owasso) TDSA has to provide all funds for every course


I posted my financials, including disc profits, payouts and course funds after each mini. I also emailed it each week to Treat. He can verify this. You probably make as much at Hunter as I make at Centennial, which is a negative amount. It costs me to take care of that course.
As I'm sure you are way upside down at Hunter.
I never questioned what you do for your course. I never questioned any TD directly. My statement about how Joyle turned in his money is aboslutlly true and you know it. That type of lose business practices create the idea of doubt. I questioned the boards motives for the statement that it was just too much trouble for the TDs.

Oh and by the way, I NEVER said pay the other half of the ace pot to the club. I did propose that the non-memebr only get half.

You are right, the TDSA has to maintain several courses, more than ever before. Which is why it is even more reason I am upset. We have spent thousands and hardly nothing has gone to the courses upkeep. And even more reason to be concered about more money going out than in.

There would be no "re-creation" as you put it for mini records. I still have every handwritten mini sheet that will match TDSA records and all mini results are posted on the board. I would not have to "re-create" anything. Any other accusations you would like to throw out there?

I'm sure you've never been told no to anything in your life and I'm sure you always got everything you wanted handed to you.... Well, welcome to the real world!

oh and all these records are available to paid members all they have to do is ask where do you propose we post them for the paid members to be able to see them

I live in the real world buddy, handed to me? Then you don't have a clue. No body gave me my business, I earned it and I didn't get this far by not questioning things when they don't seem right. Don't come off here like the board has done a great job. 90% of what Treat claimed the club has done since Worlds are the same functions the club did before worlds.

Yes, you are all volunteers but you chose to do it. As a matter of fact each one of you asked for the job. Now the first instance of a member questioning the board's practices all we see is each responding board member being defensive, instead of addressing the members questions. Again, I didn't bring into question each Tds accounting, only the way the accounting was being being delivered to the club and the.

Since you're a board member, I'll propose the same questions for you that I gave Treat, you have the same ability to answer them, your'e a board member that has been around since Worlds and since you're in the mood to provide answers to things I didn't question.........................

Lets start with the account from post worlds to date......................
The account was at around 19K, right?
The account is at now what, not including the outstanding debt that may not be collected?

Budget, you stated that you have plans for a budget....well, could we please see the clubs budget for the last 3 years? If not, why not?

Did or did the club not make a sizeable investment of club funds that may not be collectable?

Do the current Tds or any past Tds regulary submit accounting to the treasurer of their minis?

oh and all these records are available to paid members all they have to do is ask where do you propose we post them for the paid members to be able to see them

Why only for paid members..................?

As a not for profit association, most of the information should be available to the general public, not just a paid member. Those items that are for members only can be emailed, faxed or mailed to the requesting member.

I'm still waiting to see what you get for becoming a club memeber. For my 10$ I got a Wafda Tag and other stuff, Plus I became a year long member. Don't think they would take any cash away from me either if I was a non-club member hitting an ace in a mini. The last part is just speculation but you see my point. I will never join the TDSA until some things have changed.

As a matter of fact I am not even sure why the TDSA got 15 $ of my money last year. I hit an ACE at Centennial and i don't believe it is a TDSA run course. Can you explain that to me???

No body gave me my business


First of all you didn't earn your business. You married into it and her dad helped you get started. I give you due credit for building it up as you have but as you told me, you were digging ditches before she came along. Now based on your reasoning whether what I said is true or not doesn't my accusation put you on the defensive?

Hinds, you can't compare WAFDA to TDSA. They don't have the same number of courses to maintain or require the same influx of funds to keep the club going.

While I have a different opinion of what the membership is worth, you'll get merchandise equal to the $20 you pay, voting rights, full ace pot and a free hot dog. Other than that you don't have to be a member to have take full advantage of all the other benefits they offer, such as minis about every night of the week, monthly schedule and tournaments.

First of all you didn't earn your business. You married into it and her dad helped you get started. I give you due credit for building it up as you have but as you told me, you were digging ditches before she came along. Now based on your reasoning whether what I said is true or not doesn't my accusation put you on the defensive?

Just like I said in an erlier post. You would try to turn it to a personal attack instead of addressing any of the real questions that were put forth.

I'm still waiting to see what you get for becoming a club memeber. For my 10$ I got a Wafda Tag and other stuff, Plus I became a year long member. Don't think they would take any cash away from me either if I was a non-club member hitting an ace in a mini. The last part is just speculation but you see my point. I will never join the TDSA until some things have changed.

As a matter of fact I am not even sure why the TDSA got 15 $ of my money last year. I hit an ACE at Centennial and i don't believe it is a TDSA run course. Can you explain that to me???

You and a lot of other people have the same misconception. Disc golf is a free sport, yes. You can go out to the park and play if you are a casual player. That is due largely to the help of the TDSA and some from the city parks. However, you Bryan, are a tournament player and a mini player. Do you think all of those tournaments and minis should be provided to you at no benefit to the club? It takes resources and time to run a mini and to maintain courses. Even though the maintenance has been a little on the lacking side, improvements have been made to Chandler, Haikey, Hunter, and Riverside all within the past two years.

Have you ever joined a softball league? Have you ever joined a soccer league? Basketball? I'm pretty sure those are all going to cost you at least $50 dollars for the SEASON. Disc golf is a steal, and you know it.

Sack up and become a contributing member to the sport (and CLUB) you choose to participate in.

Ok, I'll try and answer some for you.

Lets start with the account from post worlds to date......................
The account was at around 19K, right?

I'm not sure that is what is was but I'll take your word for it.

The account is at now what,

As of last Monday the balance was $8,724.27 with $4,500 outstanding. I don't think that includes mini money turned in for this month though. Just combining those numbers with the $2000 or so for Chandler T-pads and the $500 sponsorship to the YMCA which was probably a mistake that accounts for 15,724.27 of the 19K you say was in account when you quit.

Did or did the club not make a sizeable investment of club funds that may not be collectable?

Why do you beat around the bush and not just say what you want to say? It didn't keep you from attending that event did it?:cool:

Do the current Tds or any past Tds regulary submit accounting to the treasurer of their minis?

I do not turn in my mini sheet because by the time I'm done scribbling names, numbers, and payouts nobody is going to be able to make any sense of it anyway. I've seen your writing and you suck at it too.

What difference would it make if I wanted to steal? If I had thirty players couldn't I just post 25 of them on the board and generate a mini sheet to match it? How do we know that you're not doing the same thing? Considering the BS you run and the Nite Flights by just paying your entry and then leaving after your first throw I would say that calls your character into question. And maybe Wayne's character also for having let you get away with it. I'm not the only one on this board that has made reference to the "Wise" move.

You can say whatever you want about what you generate at Owasso but just because your paper matches your post how do we really KNOW???:rolleyes:

You want to call out Joyle, then why don't you call out Wayne and Big Nic for their Nite Flight accounting? I never see any financial updates at club meetings on those. Should we bring their character into question? Go ahead because you're going to be all alone on that one.

I know you wanted that 20% tax Dave because you were going to use the TDSA example to pull an extra 20% from non-members at Owasso to generate more cash as well. Why don't you go ahead and do that and let us know how it all works out. It's funny how when you buy 90 players packs and your initial investment is high for your Centennial event you don't seem to care who's a member or who is not. What TD would?

Has there been a few bad decisions in the TDSA? I would say yes. There maybe an Admin position open so welcome back little buddy.

Does that help answer your questions?

Do you think all of those tournaments and minis should be provided to you at no benefit to the club?



Paul, to play any of the TDSA minis, you need not be a member. To play any of their tournaments, there is no extra charge if you're not a member. If you shoot well, you can win as much as any member. So, why wouldn't he think that way?

Anyone playing the Dovillio(s) mini tomorrow? I love disc golf!!

I do not turn in my mini sheet because by the time I'm down scribbling names, numbers, and payouts nobody is going to be able to make any sense of it anyway. What difference would it make if I wanted to steal? If I had thirty players couldn't I just post 25 of them on the board and generate a mini sheet to match it? How do we know that you're not doing the same thing? You're another that doesn't seem to grasp what I'm talkiing about. You're elected to the board and appointed by the board to run Chandler. It is your responsibility to submit documentation with the funds you collected in the members behalf. And it's the Boards responsibilty to make sure you do.

You can say about what you generate at Owasso but just because your paper matches your post how do we really KNOW???:rolleyes:
I guess anyone can cook the books, so to say. That is why, even though Centennial is not an official TDSA course, I did provide the Treasure and excell spread sheet, showing the date, players, ace pot, ctp, disc payouts with profits and the course improvement monies. I did this because it is what every Td should do.

You want to call out Joyle, then why don't you call out Wayne and Big Nic for their Nite Flight accounting? I never see any financial updates at club meetings on those. This was not about individuals, Joyle was an example of the loose accounting that the Board has allowed to continue.

I know you wanted that 20% tax Dave because you were going to use the TDSA example to pull an extra 20% from non-members at Owasso to generate more cash as well. Why don't you go ahead and do that and let us know how it all works out. It funny how when you buy 90 players packs and your initial investment is high for your Centennial event you don't seem to care who's a member or who is not. What TD would? I'm not trying to support a club from Centennial. Just the course itself. Centennial is not in need of repair. It is in need of more player ameneties and that we have done and continue to do so.

Has there been a few bad decisions in the TDSA? I would say yes. There maybe an Admin position open so welcome back little buddy.
No thanks, been there done that, have several T-shirts to prove it.

Does that help answer your questions?
It would be better if you could leave individual courses out of it. That was never my complaint.

Anyone playing the Dovillio(s) mini tomorrow? I love disc golf!!


That won't slow this down. Might as well move that to the Where u playing thread.:cool:

Why do people see this discussion as a negative thread. Don't read it if you don't want to know more about your club or find out how it operates. Should we change the topic of this discussion to "Members who care, only"

My fault. This seems to be where the traffic is. Sorry.

Wise,

In five years or ten years from now if you're not around and Centennial needs repair what group would more than likely step in and help?

As far as what TD's turn in I only know what I turn in. Are you telling me that back in the years when you were treasuer everybody conformed because Joyle was running minis back then as well I believe?

You've brought up so many complaints here.

There has already been discussion about posting meeting minutes here on the board though there should be some lock on the thread or it will turn into something like this one has become. Treat has already started emailing them to Admins that can't make it to every meeting. This thread was supposed to be the beginning of a more open club enviroment so members would know whats going on at the meetings.

When Treat first set up this thread with the 20% tax announcement I told him I wouldn't post here even though I didn't like it but obviously when the 20% got pulled it didn't stop you.

Instead of a 20% what would you think about a motion for just a flat $1 deduction on all non-member payout starting next year? Basically the same except I wouldn't have to carry two different payout sheets. I just use our standard and deduct at payout. Perhaps for people like Hinds we deduct $2.

How about put the question to a vote by all the members at the picnic?

And one thing members out there should remember also about these TD's that are volunteering is that once they are done, someone else will need to take their place.

No problems here Kyle.

Why do people see this discussion as a negative thread."
Can you account for what positive ideas for the clearing up of the goals and progress of the club have been brought out.
I have already grown weary of trying to read all of this :P
D.P.

Instead of a 20% what would you think about a motion for just a flat $1 deduction on all non-member payout starting next year?

not bad, i'd vote for it, $5 deduction from Hinds

Mike Treat has answered some questions. Furdog has answered some questions. We have some new ideas being generated. Negative discussion is inevitable when trying to bring about change, and progress. There will be butting of heads and with this bunch of characters (myself included!) we will see plenty of back and fourth slander, but at the end of the day if the ball gets rolling, it is a good thing.


I have already grown weary of trying to read all of this :P
D.P.

Then don't. :/
P.D.

Wise,

In five years or ten years from now if you're not around and Centennial needs repair what group would more than likely step in and help?
I would hope that a player or the club at that time would do it.
We can't predict the future but we should try and learn from the past.

As far as what TD's turn in I only know what I turn in. Are you telling me that back in the years when you were treasuer everybody conformed because Joyle was running minis back then as well I believe?
I tried to institute that when I was treasurer and it was not received well by the current Tds at that time.

You've brought up so many complaints here.

There has already been discussion about posting meeting minutes here on the board though there should be some lock on the thread or it will turn into something like this one has become. Treat has already started emailing them to Admins that can't make it to every meeting. This thread was supposed to be the beginning of a more open club enviroment so members would know whats going on at the meetings.
I never aksed for the meeting minutes. I never asked for anything outside of what a member should be entitled to. I asked questions of the board and its board members. And this thread has become a place that members can see whats going on and whats not going on.

When Treat first set up this thread with the 20% tax announcement I told him I wouldn't post here even though I didn't like it but obviously when the 20% got pulled it didn't stop you. I was never in favor of announcing any part of it. Had you attended that meeting you would know that. The TDSA put it up here for public viewing, for all to see. Not just members.

Instead of a 20% what would you think about a motion for just $1 deduction on all non-member payout starting next year? Perhaps for people like Hinds we deduct $2. Yes, that is a suggestion. But, if you run the numbers that will not generate enough income to fix much.
Plus it won't pass the board. That would require each Td to look up who is a member and who is not. That would be too much work on the Tds. That is the exact reason they gave for repealing it.

Here is Treat's exact statement "The reason for the change is due to the amount of work it takes to identify current members at minis and possible confusion during payouts."




Put the question to a vote by all the members at the picnic?
This could be the best suggestion yet.

Can you account for what positive ideas for the clearing up of the goals and progress of the club have been brought out.
D.P.


Well Dale, I would hope that the membership will be more enlightened of the Board's activities or lack there of. The general membership has been kept in the dark about a lot of these items. One in particular. The other items are to bring to the attention of the membership of how thier money is being spent and accounted for. I do not feel there has been any willfull intent to missappropriate any club monies. But I do feel some of the Board's decisions over the last few years have not been in the best interest of the club's financial health.

not bad, i'd vote for it, $5 deduction from Hinds

Come on Paul, you're an accountant, that won't provide any extra dollars for the club. He would have to cash for us to collect.:cool:

Well personally I hated the idea of having to look at two different payout sheets.

If you're a member then it should be your responsibilty to have your tag with you and I shouldn't have to look you up.

You ask them up front at sign ups, "Are you a member?...Show me your tag." I already know who the Lifers are.

I can see how two different payout sheets might be more of a hassle to a TD that actually plays in the mini and does all his payout figuring afterwards so I don't blame those guys. It's getting dark and all the sudden you have to figure out who are the good guys and who are the bad.

A $1 on all non-mem payout and maybe even a $2 cut on the first place guy works for me.

If the standard payout sheet says I owe you $10 and you can't produce a tag then here you go, $9, don't spend it all in one place.

But just like I said, push these volunteers far enough and they quit, you better have someone willing to step up because I don't see a long line of applicants applying.

Poor reasoning. Poor excuse. You don't want to charge non-mems an extra dollar at sign up and you don't want to take 3-4 minutes to look an an extra payout sheet for the ability to raise a couple thousand a year for course improvements.
Sorry buddy but sometimes it takes a little extra work to earn a little extra money.

Maybe we should put this on the upcoming ballot to be voted on by the active membership. It's their money we are talking about, it's their courses they play on that we are talking about.

Just so you know what got me fired up over this, it is this statement.
Not because it was voted out be the reason given.

The reason for the change is due to the amount of work it takes to identify current members at minis and possible confusion during payouts."

It's their money we are talking about, it's their courses they play on that we are talking about.

Wrong, I would say 60-70 percent of the money generated at Chandler has been non-member money including camping fees generated at CS. So if members want to talk about their money that they themselves have actually contributed at Chandler then they should ask what the TDSA should do with their 30 or 40%.

Members don't own those courses either.

If your idea was so great then why didn't you lead first by example at Centennial?

Your idea might not have sounded so bad if it didn't have that 20% added to it. It makes it sound like a govenment tax. Try selling that in today's economy.

I would be more than happy to assist with the creation of a survey to asses the current pulse of the members and non members and identify areas of imporvement or change to meet the needs of the community we serve. Just a thought.

Wrong, I would say 60-70 percent of the money generated at Chandler has been non-member money including camping fees generated at CS. So if members want to talk about their money that they themselves have actually contributed at Chandler then they should ask what the TDSA should do with their 30 or 40%.

Members don't own those courses either.

If you idea was so great then why didn't you lead first by example at Centennial?

Your idea might not have sounded so bad if it didn't have that 20% added to it. It makes it sound like a govenment tax. Trying selling that in today's economy.

It doesn't matter if it comes from non-members. Once you collect it, it becomes the clubs and the club belongs to the members.

You know what I meant about the courses. I consider them all my courses because I play on all of them. I also want to see them kept up.


You're last statement is Way off! Centennial isn't trying to support several courses, several TDs, schedules, minis, tournaments, charities and other activities.

You can call it a tax, user fee, penalty what ever you want. The fact remains, that 90%+ of the money being paid out at minis is paid to non-members. The other fact is that they along with the members benefit from their contributions. The money goes back into the courses. It benefits everyone. The non-mems cashing at every mini are not newbies. They are the same players you payout at every mini, they have no incentive to join. The members contribute by supporting the club. Why shouldn't the non-mems support the club, if they are going to utilize all of the club's benefits?

Why do people see this discussion as a negative thread. Don't read it if you don't want to know more about your club or find out how it operates. Should we change the topic of this discussion to "Members who care, only"

Who thinks thinks this is negative or people dint care?

I would be more than happy to assist with the creation of a survey to asses the current pulse of the members and non members and identify areas of imporvement or change to meet the needs of the community we serve. Just a thought.


Great idea Kyle! I am making a survey right now that I am going to have at Riverside Tuesday night.

What questions should be on it?

Anyone that fills one out will be entered in the C.T.P. for free

"at no cost to the club or it's members Wise"

Hinds, you can't compare WAFDA to TDSA. They don't have the same number of courses to maintain or require the same influx of funds to keep the club going.

While I have a different opinion of what the membership is worth, you'll get merchandise equal to the $20 you pay, voting rights, full ace pot and a free hot dog. Other than that you don't have to be a member to have take full advantage of all the other benefits they offer, such as minis about every night of the week, monthly schedule and tournaments.

all good points.... I just have to say that the 3 years I was a tdsa member, I don't remember getting anything out of it other than a lighter wallet.

For the three years you were a TDSA member the TDSA didn't get anything out of you either so I would say we're even.:D

As a TDSA board member I am all for (good) changes happening for the club. I'm glad we have someone as passionate as disc golf as Wise is, I think he has some good points, and I would say come back and get on the TDSA board in November or I would be just as supportive of Wise being on the ODGF board.
I see the ODGF and TDSA being good for each other, not mutually exclusive. The ODGF has already done a lot for disc golf in the area, starting with donating to the Tulsa Am Jam (for the benefit of the players). Other TDSA board members also donated to the Tulsa Am Jam. The TDSA did not donate $ to the Am Jam but helped in a big way by it's members and board members donating their time to make it happen (so that is part of what the TDSA is doing for tournament players).
Part of the reason the TDSA bank account is lower than it was after Worlds is that the TDSA has helped support tournaments (probably some of Wise' tourneys) not just in Tulsa but in the Oklahoma area.
As a board member I am more than willing and glad to try and implement any fund raising ideas (which I think Dave is a great source of these).
As far as our investment in private courses, the TDSA did that to help make sure we had a major and their was the full intention that we get that money back. I'm glad Dave that you have helped us as much as you have to help us get that money back - but what is that saying about getting "blood from a turnip." If you can help us recover that money or have any ideas in how to do this I think me and most TDSA members would support that.
I think your idea of reporting minis is a good idea and I thought too that we were working on that.
We are supposed to continue having monthly work days to improve courses (althought we are helping run so many tourneys or members/players are playing in so many tourneys that they are hard to schedule).
When I look around the room at TDSA meetings most people at those meetings have given a great deal of their time to either help work on courses or to put on tournaments or minis. None of them make their living from disc golf, all of us are volunteers. I have made zero money from disc golf or from being a TDSA member (besides my winnings in tournaments).
I think Treat came up with a great idea of posting our board meeting minutes on the TDSA site. I say we make it happen. I want the members to know what we are doing and talking about.
I would say that most TDSA board members welcome Dave's input and ideas about what to do as a club and respect what Dave has done to help the club. I don't think this is time to jump ship, more like why don't you jump in and help drive it.
I personally think that disc golfers in the area should help support both the TDSA and the ODGF, because I believe (and know) that they are helping you if you play disc golf.
Cris Hicks

In the meantime for those of you still questioning a TDSA membership, you can always donate to the ChandlerPark Rec Center and for a minimum of a $100 donation you can get your name on a leaf on the Rec wall like these fine people.

http://sites.google.com/site/chandlerparktulsa/chandler-park-donors

It's 100% tax deductable and 100 times more visible than Sharpe'in your name on a basket. :)

Great post Cris!!!!!!!

All for one and one for all...

United we stand, divided we will certainly fall..

Get involved, help us to help you!!!!

Very well put Mr. Hicks..

One correction, if I may.....The TDSA has never donated any money to any of my events, I have never asked.

I respect your opinion, you have always been a person of interigty. I know that all the TDs give to their events and courses. IF they make anything, its a small bonus. I was addressing the lack of the board requiring accounting, not the TDs themselves.

Maybe this conversation, over the past two days has brought many things to light. Some bad, some good. I have no desire to divide the club. I just want the club to continue its growth and not find itself back where it was pre 2006 due to poor business decisions. I'm glad to see there are plans for a 2011 budget, its been needed for a while. I still feel the board needs to find a funding plan for course improvements. Not a quick fund raiser but a long term plan. We are in this for the long haul, right?

I will always continue to do what I can for disc golf in the area. I look forward to the added benefits of the ODGF. It will be great to watch it grow. I feel that could be a good affilliation for both orginzations.

However I'm not ready to get all rosey about this yet. Promises are worthless without results.

I do thank you for your comments, all of them.

I'm done.









For now..................




As for TurdDog, I hope a piece of sapce junk falls on him.

One correction, if I may.....The TDSA has never donated any money to any of my events, I have never asked.

True but where would you be without the TDSA promotion and the TDSA members and Admins that have have helped you and grown with you through out the years? You've thrown a lot of stones here.

I've been coming to TDSA meetings since the days of You, John Green, and McCoy and it's never been perfect. If I had know perfection is what was expected from me then I would had left Las Vegas a long time ago.

As John Green would say there have always been things going on that make you want to say "Huh???" and you're no "Cherry" either.

Let he who is without sin cast the first ROC!!!

I can't understand why it feels like I wasting my time here. I volunteered with some stupid idea that I could make some type of difference and be remembered after I'm gone but now I just wish some chunk of space junk would land on my head and give me some peace and serenity away from all this crap.:(

For the three years you were a TDSA member the TDSA didn't get anything out of you either so I would say we're even.:D

Come on now... I have donated stuff to tournaments numerous times. Mini's as well. I am now helping the scout troops here in Owasso learn the game so they can get their Merit badges.

I was also there to plant trees at Redhawk, helped with T-pads in Owasso.... Just small things like that. I do my part.

I am just in dis-agreeement with the way the Ace pot money is being handled. That is really my only beef.

I am just in dis-agreeement with the way the Ace pot money is being handled. That is really my only beef.

I don't see any problem with the new Ace Pot policy Hinds. If it's $100 and under you get what you always would have got if you were a non-member.

If you're a non-member and it's over $100 then you get half and you have to come back next week to win the
other half.:)

I stated years back that it's important to take care of your members and make them feel like they are a part of something. I always thought the club picnic was a good way to get everyone together but not everyone shows up. Maybe we can do a quarterly get together like bowling or cater in some food for an OU football game or something. Could be a good way to get more members involved with the club...just a thought.

As far as generating money for the clubs future I trust the board members I voted for to take care of that. I just want to know one thing. Does Jake Regeir do any work for the club? Why don't you guys have him bring some filet's out to the course or something?? :) :)

MC, maybe Reiger will bring out filets if you change it to an OSU game:)

Bedlam?

:D I went to OSU, my daughter and son in law graduated this spring from OU and now my daughter is in OSU medical school as a first year and my son in law is a first year at the OU Rx school

GO TU :D
actually I have to root for both until bedlam and then it is go for the team that is highest in the BCS championship run.

:D I went to OSU

it all makes sense now!!

I take back anything mean I've ever said Martin! Clearly you were just another victim of the OSU education system. I didn't realize all your thoughtless comments weren't your fault!! :)

http://www.21softs.com/emoticons/images/console.gif


Are you listening to me Martin?

It's not your fault.
It's not your fault.

It's not your fault.

It's not your fault.

http://motivationalsmartass.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/its-not-your-fault.jpg

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paul has joined the ranks of the E-shiet talkers.............................

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/drumsforever88/e-thug.jpg

Paul is a long way from Thuggie.. He is more Huggie!!!!

May be so Paul but I have taught several lecture classes at OU and that caused some brain warp too. :D

For all parties that are not playing in events Saturday November 13, 2010 there will be a work detail at the Lodge in Pawhuska.

Inova has provided replacement chains and tops for the island course along with DD2's for the workers Disc golf and turtle hunt to follow the dam busting on the creek course :D

Dam busting? Does this mean more water will be on the mocassin course?

I will be in South Carolina with family.
Hey while the water is down . . . .
I have a Red Z USDGC wildcat around 10ft. east of the bridge, in the North half :P
Wish I could be there :(
Sorry I will miss out.
D.P.

Dam busting? Does this mean more water will be on the mocassin course?
.
.
... kinda neat , really ... Jim says that ol' pond (Mocc.#11 and 12) is about 70-75 years old ... gonna knock-out that dam with a backhoe and watch it drain ... (all kinds of critters will spill out) ... after he dries the mud and silt (pretty thick) ; he re-works his pond-structure and rebuilds his dam again in the Spring ...