I recently completed a comparative study of online signup vendors for the Divisional Tour Newsgroup, and I'm posting it here because it has broader relevance. I've had feedback from my newsgroup members, from vendors who offer on-line signup, from local clubs, and from the PDGA. Here is what I have learned.

I asked vendors what they needed to charge to make a fair profit. This "fair profit" question drew a range of responses. Some vendors charge a percentage, some a flat dollar rate, so it can be hard to compare. A combination may work best for a range of entry fees, and these can be as low as 2.5% + $1.50. Local clubs may offer even lower rates, but only for events sponsored by the club.

The PDGA's signup partner, BEI, did not respond to my questions, but their strategy is obvious from the tour calendar. BEI charges a flat dollar fee, and it is generally much higher than independent vendors. It was almost $9 for the Memorial, and because it is flat the percentage varies by division. It is worst for the juniors, novices and recs, reaching as high as 20%. On the average BEI is charging about 50% more than the competitive rate from an independent vendor. BEI charged more than twice as much for the Memorial as the Columbus Flyers will charge for the Brent Hambrick Memorial. There are three reasons for BEI's high charges. When you sign up with the PDGA service, two corporations are making a profit, both the PDGA and BEI. Second, although BEI is the PDGA's partner, the PDGA has "no control" over BEI's processing fees. Finally, the PDGA limits competition from independent vendors, so that BEI has a partial monopoly. The PDGA refused to offer any assurance that they would not expand this monopoly in the future.

So much for the facts. Here are some opinions:

1) TD's should feel free to use online signup if they feel it would lighten their load. I would certainly prefer that they not use BEI, for obvious reasons. I'm not going to recommend any particular independent vendor. What is best for you will probably depend a lot on the range of entry fees in your event. Best to shop around a bit and compare.
2) If any division gets gouged for online signup, I'd prefer it not be the juniors, novices and recs. Our future lies with these folks, and they aren't experienced enough to realize when they are being taken for a ride.
3) TD's should consider offering a mail-in option, and charging a comparable fee. I like this because then the money would stay with the TD (to compensate for the effort) or the local club, instead of going to the PDGA or some other outside corporation. They should also encourage their local clubs to develop an online signup service, for the same reason.
4) PDGA members should protest any moves by the PDGA to limit competition. It is unfair to independent vendors, many of whom have supported the PDGA for years. Furthermore, if the PDGA can drive them out of business, BEI will have a total monopoly and their fees will go through the roof.

I agree that this is a problematic issue. Often I will play a tournament with my two sons, both juniors, and this can wind up being an additional expense of note. A C-tier tournament that we are looking into playing at the end of this month would cost us an additional $12.50 if we were to register online, which is on the low end of the the norm I've found in our experience. Usually I plan ahead and mail-in our registrations, but for tournaments that sell out quickly that is not always an option. In the example above it would be an additional 10% on top of the entry, which I think is too much for a very limited service.

Bill Maury-Holmes

I like this because then the money would stay with the TD (to compensate for the effort) or the local club, instead of going to the PDGA or some other outside corporation.

Peter, I agree 100% with everything you just presented but I have just one reservation, and it's about the bolded part above.

Imo, I think it's wrong to advocate against extra monies going to the PDGA, and essentially imply that this money would go into someone's pocket. The PDGA is a non-profit organization run by a volunteer Board of Directors, and all earnings which come into the PDGA (and surplus money) must be retained by the organization for its self-preservation, expansion and future plans. Earnings may not benefit individuals or stake-holders.

The "$10 Test, Money grab or valid expense?" thread on this message board is especially absurd on this level. Whether the decision to charge $10 for folks to take a rules test is irrelevant; it's the malicious notion being presented there that any extra monies the PDGA would accumulate is a "money grab." This isn't your local pizza place grabbing your money so that it can go into the owner's pocket. We're talking about our national non-profit organization who uses that money to grow the sport of disc golf!

I think that many, many folks don't understand that the PDGA is a non-profit organization and that it does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, and instead uses that money to pursue its goal of growing the sport of disc golf, and for that purpose only. Should the PDGA look into alternate signup partners to save we consumers some money? Absolutely! I agree 100%, especially when it comes to juniors and novices. But I really don't think we need to imply that any miniscule income the PDGA would bring in from this (or any other) service is a nefarious "money grab." It's money which goes right back into the sport.

to Jeff:

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you. But these are not normal circumstances. In my opinion the PDGA may currently have the status of a nonprofit, but it is being run as though it was a "for profit", and its major benefits accrue to a tiny number of the privileged elite. That "money grab" thread would not have the momentum it has if members didn't sense that they are being nickled and dimed in many other ways, and the vast majority aren't getting anything useful out of it. This BEI mess is just another symptom. So are the message board complaints. The PDGA has poured members' money into Ciphent for almost three years. Do you honestly believe the message board works better now than it did three years ago?

Your quote ("all earnings which come into the PDGA (and surplus money) must be retained by the organization for its self-preservation, expansion and future plans. Earnings may not benefit individuals or stake-holders") describes one of the essential features of a nonprofit, and I know that you believe it sincerely. But our Executive Director does not believe it. And our Board, asked directly by me, has not affirmed that they do either. As I said, these are not normal circumstances.

Peter,

Somehow, I thought from the title that there would be some actual vendor comparison information here. Oh, something like a list of vendors, their charges (whether flat, percentage, combination, or whatever), unique features that various vendors might offer or omit, etc. Something, you know, useful.

to davidsauls:

Initially I thought I might do that, but I didn't for several reasons:

1) There are a lot of vendors, and I worried that I might miss one or more. And it's complicated, because of the different ways vendors set prices. Finally, there are different types of vendors. Should I include clubs with online systems? And how about the "full service vendors", folks who will come in and run your whole event? I don't have that much time.
2) Price is not the only consideration. To do a full comparison, I'd have to survey not only the vendors, but also the satisfaction level of clients who have used different vendors. Again, no time.
3) Although I'm clearly arguing against BEI, I don't want to create the inpression that I'm arguing for any particular independent vendor. No one vendor is best for all events. In general, vendors with low flat dollar rates are better for events with high entry fees. If your entry fees are low, look for low percentage rates.

It's much safer to say, "shop around". To see what vendors are charging, you can look at events on the PDGA calendar that are currently in the registration phase, because many of them offer online signup. Then contact a few, and ask what they would charge for your event. Be sure to make some calculations, so you know the dollar and percentage fees for your different divisions. And please, don't stick it to your juniors/novices/recs.

Your quote ("all earnings which come into the PDGA (and surplus money) must be retained by the organization for its self-preservation, expansion and future plans. Earnings may not benefit individuals or stake-holders") describes one of the essential features of a nonprofit, and I know that you believe it sincerely. But our Executive Director does not believe it. And our Board, asked directly by me, has not affirmed that they do either. As I said, these are not normal circumstances.

To David & Peter,

I apologize for the severe thread drift. But as previously expressed in other threads, I find it both bizarre and also depressing to see a former BoD member and Communications Director now publicly calls out the BoD on an ever increasing basis, and curiosity gets the better of me. The latest statement, bolded above, is a very serious accusation which essentiallly implies impropriety. But since only BoD members or ED could verify or refute said claims, in the absence of such, I will have to take Peter's word for it. Having worked closely with Peter in the past, I have never had any reason to doubt his word.

Getting back to the original charge of the thread, I empathize 100% with its sentiments. While I have not played in PDGA sanctioned events in some time, I have played in a few Ice Bowls and BYOP doubles events which utilized online signup vendors and have paid a few fees, but surely none as large as are typically charged by BEI for larger NT and Major events. Furthermore, as a fan of improvisational live music, at last count I have attended over 300+ ticketed concert events since the mid 1980s. In that time I have witnessed ticket prices skyrocket and the "convenience charges" which vendors such as Ticketmaster and Clear Channel charge become exorbitant. Many bands which I frequent have done their due diligence and have explored new startup vendors who charge a lower percentage, lower flat dollar rate, or combination of both, in order to keep these surcharges at a minimum for their fans. I think it is paramount that the PDGA also do the same and explore other options for tournament registrations.

To wit, online registrants in the Tim Selinske United States Masters Championship (http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1291410089) paid a $7.25 handling fee, which is simply outrageous imho. Furthermore, online registrants in smaller 'C' tier events (http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1297364743)typically pay a $3.75 - $4.00 handling fee. Why does it cost $3.25 - $3.50 more to process a National Tour or Major event than it does any other PDGA event? Again, while I don't have any issues with that extra money going to the PDGA to be invested back in the growth of the sport of disc golf, for the good of the consumer, the PDGA needs to find a vendor who charges a flat fee of no more than say, $3.00 for any event, no matter the size.

The larger events have larger entry fees unfortunately. Since the Paypal/CC Fees do have a percentage portion in calculating the fees, you need to correlate entry fees and handling fees. I know to simplify things on my end, I charge a flat handling fee for my tournaments. If I don't then the Pros may complain that they are being charged more for the same thing even though they cost more in Paypal fees than the Ams paying a lower entry fee.

No one that wants to stay in business can charge $3 for all events. If the entry fee is $100, then that vendor will be losing money on Paypal fees alone.

I offer a service and I do it to make money. Go ahead, pick your jaw up off the floor because I really did just say that out loud. If you're not making money you will go out of business. Why in the world is that concept so hard for people to grasp? I'm not the cheapest solution by any means and guess what ... I'm ok with that.

If you don't like the online fees of any given online payment system then you should pay for the event in person, or pay with a check, or simply don't play in the event at all. If you don't like something, don't support it. However, if you want the convenience of waiting until the last possible minute to pay for the event then you're going to pay the 'inconvenience fee' to the event. That might be $1 or $10 - either way, you should have planned better or be prepared to 'pay the piper'. I still firmly believe that no one should ever say a single word about tournament directing until you've directed a tournament yourself but that's for another day.

My service, www.iRegisteredOnline.com costs more. Why? Because it was custom built and I believe that it is one of the best online registration services for disc golf. Is it perfect? Not yet. However, it will only continue to improve with money. Where does money come from? Profits. Where do profits come from? I'll tell you they don't come from a bunch of people getting services at cost.

The complaints within our industry are sometimes disgusting and disheartening. My website comes with top notch tournament director experience, innovative solutions, and features that almost no other services offer. We also offer custom solutions as well as tournament kickbacks. Are you still comparing my apples to their apples at this point? Probably not. Those pesky 'details' don't always fit on a spreadsheet do they?

If you're still not sure about how good it is maybe we should put you in touch with one of the 100+ events that have used it in the past few years. Sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes you don't but just because something costs you more doesn't mean they are evil or out to rip you off. Have you ever paid more for name brand socks or groceries? Well, people do everyday even though it costs them more than the cheapest possible solution and they do it for their own reasons.

I'll just end by saying, "Support those who support you" and if you're constantly out to undercut the next guy by a penny so that you can stay in business for another week then you're hurting everyone around you, including yourself.

Terry,

From what I can tell from your website, it looks like you charge a flat $5 fee for all your tournaments, no matter whether they are smaller C tiers or larger B/A tier events, and no matter what division. You have also agreed to waive the IRO fee entirely for a smaller event at a pitch-n-putt (Leave It To Beaver II) if players register by March 20th.

For whatever it's worth, at least you are consistent and upfront about the fee policies. http://www.punkskahxc.com/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Jeff,

I apologize for not spelling that out in my rant. By default, IRO charges a flat $5. HOWEVER, if an event came to me and said, "We have entry fees ranging from as low as $5 to the highest being $25, would you consider reducing the fee?" and I would answer ABSOLUTELY. Similarly, if your were hosting a marathon on my site and the average entry fee was $250, I would in fact have to bump up my flat IRO fee. As you stated though, $5 is in fact my typical flat fee. TDs have to option to include that $5 right into the entry of the event or they can separate the $5 IRO fee so people know they are paying it upfront. Either way, my site provides options.

Other people like to charge FLAT fees that are a dollar or two less than me. Some people charge a percentage and figure the cost out for each and every division and make no money that way. I'm all about the free market and people can charge what they want but if you plan to make $.05 or $.15 per registration fee you're going to find that the time of your site and the headaches that accompany doing this simply aren't worth it. Not if you're trying to make money anyway.

Say your event happens to run a huge percentage of the overall event entry fees through my site - guess what ... "bonus round". Yeah, that means along with your check (which you can request anytime and in any intervals), I'll go ahead and ship out some merch for your event. I usually suggest you 'reward' those that used the site and then offer an IRO ONLY CTP or IRO ONLY raffle for the free stuff. Again, there are options.

At the end of the day, what is this discussion all about? The fact that one site charges $4 for an entry and that another one charges $5? $3.50 vs $4.25? Whatever the case might be I wanted to point out in my first post that if people don't make something, there is very little incentive to make better products or improve the services.

I have NEVER discouraged anyone from simply mailing in a check. In fact, the events I compete in, I MAIL in a check. I refuse to pay any online fees because I plan ahead. If I were desperate and needed to get into an event at the very last minute then I think I should be subject to whatever online fees I'm being charged.

Jeff,

We must be very careful here. I haven't charged "impropriety" yet, not on this issue. You and I may believe that it is improper for a nonprofit to take money that has been paid in by all the members and pay it back out to a tiny group of privileged members. But we're not IRS agents or PDGA auditors (at least I'm not), so our opinion may not be worth much.

discglfr and others,

As I had hoped, we're getting much useful discussion about registration options. Unfortunately, you can't always just send a check, because some TD's have no mail-in option. I'm hoping they may offer one, if they receive a comparable fee for their trouble. I'm most worried about the form a BEI monopoly might take in the future. BEI may not allow TD's to offer mail-in. In fact, I believe that we will see that this year in the "World Competition" events in August. TD's of all those events will be required to use BEI (even though they are not majors), and I don't believe that mail-in will be allowed.

Everyone,

Todd Breiner (of BEI) e-mailed me on Friday. He said that he has never received any questions from me. This is certainly possible. When you send e-mail you can't be certain that it was received. I tried to guard against this possibility by sending a copy of my questions to the Board, but it is also possible that the Board did not notify Todd. In that case, my comment "BEI did not respond to my questions" would be unfair.

Todd also said that he believes that this thread is libelous, so he must believe that my comparative study is maliciously false. I stand behind the study, and look forward to defending challenges from Todd or anyone else about its validity. Since it is the opinion of the membership that is most important to me, I will make my defense here and own up to any errors here. I expect to be able to support my main contentions using data that any member could access and, if they were willing to carry out the analyses, draw similar conclusions.

good old boy networks are not always benificial to the masses.
most are good for the few good old boys

After reading that Breiner believes this thread to be libelous, I reviewed the thread for false statements that would place the subject in a bad light.

Breiner's belief that this thread is libelous is similar to my belief that the federal government is controlled by seven foot tall shapeshifting space aliens. I would be happy to attempt to prove or defend the proposition in a court of law, but only if I was being paid by the hour. No lawyer would take that on a contingent fee.

I believe Todd making the statement about this thread be libelous, shows his worries about the PDGA members not being happy about fees adding up to $700+ for registering for a tourney.

Yes processing CC costs money, but why am I paying the same as open players who stand to profit from the tourneys. AMs already pay a large percentage of tourney costs through retail value markup of payout. The pros need to pay there part for the extra 20-40 dollars of money processing. It is not fair to charge the flat rate if you are basing it off the cost of processing + handling


As for the PDGA ever mandating using BEI or any vendor for online signups, I would have nothing to do with this org or any of the tournaments they sanction.

There was a mention of this in the Jan, 2011 Teleconference, and it was decided not to discuss it again, at this time.

What irks me is that the PDGA will not publish the internet link for a tournament that uses the services of another on-line registration service. I've learned that if no internet link is offered for the tournament I'm looking at, I should go look for it on www.discgolfscene.com (http://www.discgolfscene.com). That site seems to have very reasonable surcharges for internet pre-registration. I cannot imagine why any TD uses Breiner's service, other than just ignorance.

Yes processing CC costs money, but why am I paying the same as open players who stand to profit from the tourneys. AMs already pay a large percentage of tourney costs through retail value markup of payout. The pros need to pay there part for the extra 20-40 dollars of money processing. It is not fair to charge the flat rate if you are basing it off the cost of processing + handling
You realize this is more in the control of the TDs versus Breiner or the PDGA? The pro payout required by the PDGA is only 85% at C-tiers. If more TDs actually paid out at closer to this level rather than the more common 100% or more, due to pressure from pros, all players would be equally helping support the cost of running the event.

I'll jump in for a second here... I think Peter's points have been well-made, but I'd like to add my perspective. My company, TitleDISC was the first to offer online registration for disc golf tournaments, way back in 1999. I acquired this company in 2007 and completely re-wrote the site, changing the fee structure slightly but retaining the basic concept. TitleDISC charges 2.5% + $1.50. That fee structure nets approximately $1 per entry. It is based on the rate that paypal charges me to process the payments, and after processing well over 20,000 registrations in the past 4 years, I have never once had a real complaint about the variance in fees. a handful of times over the years, I have been asked why it's more for pros... and I gave the a truthful and complete answer. The people asking the question never balked at my response.

I don't believe that "custom built" is an excuse for a higher fee structure. My site is custom built, and it replaced yet another custom built version. At some point I will add even more functionality to the site, but it can currently handle singles, doubles, teams, sanctioned and non-sanctioned. The TD gets to create the event page himself (fitting the information into a standard template) and manage all of the entries that come in. He can open/close registration at will, and he can get a live (accurate to a few seconds) report on who is registering for his event. He can even opt to publish a version of that registrant information to the public, linked directly from the event's reg page. If the PDGA would ever utilize any of the recommendations I (and lots of other tech-savvy folks) have given them, my site could even post that registration data directly to the tour page on pdga.com. It's not a perfect site by any means, but I think it's the best available when it comes to functionality. It is certainly the site that pioneered this niche industry. With all of that... it's still the cheapest out there.

One other point that I haven't brought up in a few years, but hasn't been mentioned here: the pdga's sanctioning agreement has misleading terminology in the online registration portion. The asks the question "Do you want to use online registration?". In this age, of COURSE you do. but if you check that box, you are automatically sent for provisioning in the BEI system. I demanded a wording change when this first happened, and the PDGA refused. All I wanted was for it to say something like "Would you like to use the pdga's partner (BEI) for online registration?"

I've said my piece. I'll go back to work now :)

Everyone:

Bruce Brakel "cannot imagine why any TD uses Breiner's service, other than just ignorance." Nor can I. Baldguy suggests that it is indeed a form of ignorance caused by the misleading wording that the PDGA uses in its sanctioning agreements.

Many TD's use Breiner's service, and ignorance is not the only possibility. Some TD's may feel that Breiner's service is truly superior to any other, and worth the extra cost. Others may believe that the PDGA is not already adequately supported by the membership, so surcharges that benefit the PDGA are justified.

To settle this question we must consult the TD's, since they make the choice of online vendor. I will extend my original study to poll TD's who used BEI about the reasons for their choice. There is of course no obligation for TD's to respond to me, as I have no official standing with the PDGA. Still, I hope to receive enough responses to draw some useful conclusions within a month or two. If so, I will report them here.

thanks

Peter,

As a TD who doesn't use online registration yet, but probably will in the future, I'll add a reason for using the PDGA's vendor----

Simplicity.

I don't want to spend time researching online registration vendors, comparing features, worrying that if registration company drops the ball it'll be one more hassle I have to deal with. I already have to deal with the PDGA website; why add another to my workload? The cost is minimal in any case.

Now, I personally know a couple of other vendors so will probably give them a shot first, out of loyalty. But I could easily choose BEI as the path of least resistance.

How well-informed are water and electricity? They always take the path of least resistance. So you're just making my point.

Not exactly. At least, I don't think so.

Choosing BEI because it's the option on the sanctioning agreement, and assuming it's the only option or best option, might constitute ignorance.

Choosing BEI because a TD decides that the online registration vendor is an unimportant detail, not worth his valuable time, isn't. As long as it works, there are hundreds of other TD duties to which my attention is better applied.

If someone on the BoD or whoever is responsible for it would do their due diligence and a little research, they might also find that BEI is more expensive than other independent vendors. And unless there is verifiable data that the service offered by BEI is truly superior to any other, then why not switch to a cheaper one as the official PDGA signup partner. Then this new vendor would become the path of least resistance.

I think that this is the crux of Peter's point.

Heck, from the title of this thread I was hoping to see a chart listing prices and features of the online registration services. THAT would appeal to me; I could make the best choice without investing my own time deciding.