I just wanted to get a idea of what the "true" way of marking penalties is. I was just watching a video and they marked a penalty with an asterisk. I know I've heard of and seen a few different ways of marking this on a scorecard. OB's, foot faults, etc.... what is the "right" way and what do you tell your players for tournaments?

Technically, you don't need to mark penalties for things like OB, lost disc or mandos. The only penalties that need to be indicated are those that aren't directly related to a competitive throw such as courtesy violations or foot faults. Some of those involve a warning first. So, if you have a warning or penalty like that, the accepted practice is to mark it by the player's hole score with a W or P. If a player gets a warning for a different infraction than their first warning then I suppose mark it as W1.

In the case where a player gets a P, the 1 or 2-shot penalty should be included in the hole score. For example, a player shoots a 4 on the hole but has a second foot fault called that results in a penalty. A score of 5 should be entered and the letter P placed in the corner of the hole score box.

there is no right way or true way to mark them.

Indicate it how you see fit and go as a group to the TD when you turn in the cards and explain what is going on.

The way to mark these should be defined in the rulebook or the competition manual. To me, it seems the offender, hole number, and rule violated should be noted. An official warning needs to be noted so that subsequent violations can incur the penalty.

Chuck,

The system you outline makes sense, but I'm not sure it's the "accepted practice". I've never seen it or heard of it being done that way. Around here it's circles, including, or especially, O.B. penalties.

Please save me the trouble and advise why, technically, we don't mark penalties for O.B. and such. I thought the rule book says to mark penalties, and the O.B. (mando, etc.) rules refer to penalty strokes. That's off the top of my head; am I recalling the rules incorrectly?

I don't think you'll find a requirement in the rulebook to note penalties (corrected: other than rules infractions) on the scorecard other than making sure the shots are included in the score written for the hole where it occurs. (Corrected) Penalties that occur after a second warning for the same infraction should be noted along with adding the penalty into the score written on the hole. It's a good procedure to do so to indicate the penalty was due to a second warning for the same thing.

Warnings must be noted on the scorecard in some way (W) since a warning has no throws that can be added to the hole score to indicate that it happened. The "accepted practice" I mentioned before is what I've seen marshals including me tell TDs and players at major events where scorecards have been marked with the small Ws and Ps. There's even video of Brian Graham saying that in the National Collegiate Championships this year when a warning/penalty was given.

Penalties that should always be noted are ones where the TD has the option to later ramp it up to a DQ such as damaging course foliage/property or repeated courtesy violations. Another scenario might be when the course designer requests that players mark OB penalties to determine how often they occur on a hole whose design is still being tweaked.

I agree that more explicit instructions should be written in the Rules or Q&A on the proper procedure.

"804.03 Scoring:
...
C. The scorekeeper shall record the score for each player on each hole as the total number of throws, including penalty throws. ...

D. Warnings and penalty throws given to a player for rules infractions shall be noted on the scorecard."

Thanks---that's what I had in my mind.

I recall an argument that penalty throws for O.B. or missing a mando are NOT "penalty throws for rules infractions". I'm not convinced.

Perhaps "rules infractions" should be defined. Going OB isn't really an infraction but a specific type of throw that has an additional shot attached to it. It would seem that infractions are issues where a player does something that's not allowed versus a penalty that occurs based on where their disc lands.

Or a different term used---IF it is the intent not to mark penalty throws for O.B. & Mando. Because missing a Mando looks to me to be a "rule infraction"; the rule says you must pass on the correct side, you don't, you get a penalty.

If the intent is to indicate all additions to your score in addition to actual throws---which has always been my assumption---then O.B. penalties should be marked. Somehow.

Players usually tell you when they have a penalty. They'll say something like "4P". I mark the scorecard with a dot in the scoring box of the card. Dots don't take up very much room.

as far as obs and mandos, we have always drawn a circle around our score for the hole. "ish, what did you get?"..."circle 4" (3 throws with an ob)... "double circle 6" (ob twice with 4 throws)

foot faults and courtesy voilations were written on the bottom of the card... "so and so warned for courtesy voilation on hole 8 for noise"

Circling doesn't work as an a universally clear marking method for penalties since in ball golf it also means a birdie. Some parts of the country circle their birdies. With island holes, there would also sometimes be more than 2 or 3 circles to draw.

Perhaps, but there's some sick pleasure in hearing someone announce his score as a "Circle Circle Circle Nine", spitting in suppressed fury at each "circle". And something appropriate about the little bullseye on the scorecard, in the round in which you died.

... Some parts of the country circle their birdies. ...

i've heard about that. what does that do? is it for some sort of tiebreaker or something? i mean if it's a par 4 and you get a 3 on the scorecard, it's pretty obvious it was a birdie. just like a 1 is an ace.

and i guess it's the same for marking obs and missed mandos on the scorecard... is it really necessary? it's just what i've been used to doing

and i have taken more than 1 circle on an island hole :(

Here in California, we circle birdies and square bogies just like they do in ball golf. I'm not sure why other parts of the country would deviate from this common scoring system. If I get a bogie on a par3 hole, I simply announce "4" for the number of throws on the hole. The scorekeeper would then square the 4.

In PDGA events I usually steer away from circling/squaring scores as we just add the number of throws to report total score.

For penalties, we write 4P, or 5PP. If a player receives a warning, then a w would suffice or write on bottom/top of card, player X warning foot fault hole Y.

Circling doesn't work as an a universally clear marking method for penalties since in ball golf it also means a birdie. Some parts of the country circle their birdies. With island holes, there would also sometimes be more than 2 or 3 circles to draw.

This is one of my concerns... I work at a golf resort and their scoring throws me off because of all the circles, squares and triangles... to me the scorecard is to "busy".

As someone who travels across the country playing in tournaments, the west coast is the most dominant in doing circle birdies and P for penalties. This method makes the most sense as it is easy to count birdies and sometimes actually saves a miscount since 2's and 3's can look the same when the handwriting is messy. Last week in Texas, I had a caddy and a Iowa player on my card get all fussy when I circled a birdie on the scorecard. I honestly can't understand the circle for penalty idea especially when there are chances at multiple penalties on a hole, a triple circle looks messy and can merge into two circles and get missed?
I agree that the PDGA needs to have a scorecard guideline so that there are less disagreements over styles of marking the scorecard at events that traveling players attend.

in bowling everybody can agree

i still don't see the reason... although messy handwriting has been the best one yet. what is the ultimate purpose?

Uniform scoring will not happen until strict guidelines are imposed in the rules and manual.

How does the PGA address scoring? I personally don't see what all the fuss is, write the number of throws plus penalties. Mark the penalties with any type of notification.

i just write the total number including the penalty strokes and see no reason to write any thing else

Let's see California does it correctly and everyone else does not, did I get that correct?

Put a blue diamond around my ace! Use pink hearts for birdies and green 4-leaf clovers for bogies.

Let's see California does it correctly and everyone else does not, did I get that correct? It's one of the few things we got going right in this state.

Chuck, I recall you said that the PDGA is working on figuring up hole par based on reported tournament rounds.

I was wondering if player's would need to mark each and every penalty, including OB, so that these throws could be ignored for determining hole par properly.

Interesting, I would think OB penalties are relevant courtsey violations not for assigning par values.

Put a blue diamond around my ace! Use pink hearts for birdies and green 4-leaf clovers for bogies.

Now DAT wuz funny! :D

As a frequent TD who lives in California, I really dislike the practice of circling or squaring score numbers for birdies or bogies. It very often contributes to a messy scorecard, where the numbers become difficult to read. If for some reason you need to know later whether a birdie or bogey was scored, you can always compare the score to the hole par - easy enough.

Recording penalties with P's or warnings with W's makes sense, in case there is a question later in the round or after the round about how and when a penalty or warning was issued. These letters can be written in the corners of the score box, out ofthe way of th numbers.

I looked through the USGA rules of ball golf and found nothing about circling or squaring. I also looked at the PGA web site, but saw no reference to circling or squaring scores. They do mention that it is the player's responsibility to make sure their score is correctly recorded for each hole. I did find an interesting story of a player at Q school who got the circles right, but had an incorrect number on his card (a 4 where he should have had a 3). That extra stroke made him miss the cut, so he spent the next year on the Buy.com tour.

My guess is that the circling and squaring is something tht the PGA Tour does to make it easier for TV viewers and readers to see where a player has birdies or bogies, but there's no rule that stipulates circling or squaring scores. And sometimes it can cost you a trip to Pebble Beach.

Hi Allen,
Thanks for doing that research on how the PGA handles scoring responsibility. That's a good assessment on why they do the circles & squares. TV seems to change even the most basic game.

Circling and squaring is nothing more than a counting trick intended to make it easier to count the card. Not all that different than the "counting everything as a 3" philosophy being a counting trick rather than a true reflection of par. But as rizbee points out with the story about the PGA guy in Q-school, it can bite you in the butt. Just like counting over/under 3 on each hole and then adding the result to 54 can bite you when the round happens to have more than 18 holes (such as 19 holes like the tournament I played this weekend...apparently, that burned 30 of the 95 players in round 1).

ALL penalties should be marked (OB, 2-meters, courtesy violations, EVERYTHING) in a consistent manner on the scorecard, whether it be "P" or "W" or asterisks or circles. A scorecard should have the number of throws made on each hole, including penalties, and notations of penalties/warnings. NOTHING ELSE should be written on the scorecard. No markings for birdies, no running tallies to par (a bad habit for a lot of players around here, no scribbling/drawing in the margins. Just scores and penalty/warning notes.

If you need to write down those other things, keep your own card for that purpose. As a TD, I don't care to see it.

@John - Thanks! I'm still determined to make it back out someday for Amarillo Doubles...

@Josh - Morley Field in San Diego has 19 holes, and it's common for out-of-town tournament players to make the same exact mistake. But 30 out of 95!!! Lots of penalty strokes assessed?

@Josh - Morley Field in San Diego has 19 holes, and it's common for out-of-town tournament players to make the same exact mistake. But 30 out of 95!!! Lots of penalty strokes assessed?
Yup, lots of penalty strokes (60 to be exact). The course in question is normally 18 holes, but they added a 19th temp hole to allow for an extra 5 players in the tournament. I'm assuming it wasn't just the out-of-towners who got penalized on this one, some of the locals probably got burned too. All I know is my group's card was added correctly each round.

Yup, lots of penalty strokes (60 to be exact). The course in question is normally 18 holes, but they added a 19th temp hole to allow for an extra 5 players in the tournament. I'm assuming it wasn't just the out-of-towners who got penalized on this one, some of the locals probably got burned too. All I know is my group's card was added correctly each round.

WOW... that sucked for them. But didn't the score card reflect the total par? Just curious.

I appreciate everyone's input on this topic. Having more than one perspective on the subject helps.

WOW... that sucked for them. But didn't the score card reflect the total par? Just curious.
The scorecard had 19 holes. The total par was listed correctly. People just did their little "everything is a par-3" counting trick and then added the result to 54 instead of 57.

Unfortunately, it probably wasn't all 30 people mis-adding the scores. It was probably 5-10 people mis-adding the scores (the last guy with the card and maybe one other double-checking his math), and the other 20-25 people not bothering to check at least their own score before the card was turned in. Still their own fault, but the fact that the round was 19 holes instead of 18 is something that only one person in each group had to remember for the whole group to avoid the penalty. If you're not double checking your own score, you won't be the one to remember.

When it comes to playing in a practice round, then circling/squaring birdies/bogies and listing over/under par scores is common. When I play a practice round at Morley, all players announce their scores relating to over/under par. For example, player says I shot a -5, or +3. When we tally up our scores, we count the circled birdies, against bogies. It's an easier way to count up the score and a way to easily compare other players rounds during the week. You never hear someone say, well I shot a 52 or such. We do this in practice rounds, weekly doubles, and monthlies. I think this is done because every hole is a par 3, and there's no confusion.

Now, when it comes to PDGA events, it's the opposite. The score is added up, and the score is announced as the number of strokes. Tournament layouts change, par 4s are added, some holes are removed, so it makes sense to add up the number of throws. Because of these changes, I try to stay away from circling/squaring scores at PDGA events.

I would say in a PDGA event don't circle or square any score. This helps the TD when adding up the scores. Just right down the number of throws and then total up the throws for final score.

Yup, lots of penalty strokes (60 to be exact). The course in question is normally 18 holes, but they added a 19th temp hole to allow for an extra 5 players in the tournament. I'm assuming it wasn't just the out-of-towners who got penalized on this one, some of the locals probably got burned too. All I know is my group's card was added correctly each round.


We've had similar things happen here in chicagoland in recent tournaments with temp holes added. It doesn't seem that hard to figure out, especially when the correct par is listed on the scorecard.

If you really want to see the number of cards misadded go up, make the par on just one hole a 4.

i can see how adding a few holes here and there might be confusing... but with all the rounds i've played, my card has never fell victim to the "par is always 3" thing. i even wrote on my score card book the numbers 4-9 and wrote in below what those scores would be in reference to par 3. (makes the counting by hand easier) sure you have to do a little extra math when there are 19, 20, 21, etc holes... but that has never cost me or anyone on my card strokes.

it's simple, figure out what par is based on par 3s (obviously not always 54) add 1 for a four, 2 for a five, and so on. i've met a lot of people who now use my method. although i'm sure i wasn't the only person who did that before this post.

If you really want to see the number of cards misadded go up, make the par on just one hole a 4.

True dat! People start having brain cramps and screw up the totals because they can't let that par 4 go and just use "par-3 math trick" to total their score.

As an aside, I've also found that whenever there's an 8 on a card, there's a much higher probablility it will be added wrong. I believe it's because you see 8 and think "4 over", but it's really "5 over". :)

(brain freeze from shooting a snowman :))

Circling and squaring is nothing more than a counting trick intended to make it easier to count the card. Not all that different than the "counting everything as a 3" philosophy being a counting trick rather than a true reflection of par. But as rizbee points out with the story about the PGA guy in Q-school, it can bite you in the butt. Just like counting over/under 3 on each hole and then adding the result to 54 can bite you when the round happens to have more than 18 holes (such as 19 holes like the tournament I played this weekend...apparently, that burned 30 of the 95 players in round 1).

ALL penalties should be marked (OB, 2-meters, courtesy violations, EVERYTHING) in a consistent manner on the scorecard, whether it be "P" or "W" or asterisks or circles. A scorecard should have the number of throws made on each hole, including penalties, and notations of penalties/warnings. NOTHING ELSE should be written on the scorecard. No markings for birdies, no running tallies to par (a bad habit for a lot of players around here, no scribbling/drawing in the margins. Just scores and penalty/warning notes.

If you need to write down those other things, keep your own card for that purpose. As a TD, I don't care to see it.

I had a card turned in at our last tournament with a set of notations that I had never seen before; one of the players --- for the 5 holes that he personally recorded---- wrote a "p" for par, drew a circle for birdie, and drew a square for a bogey. No NUMBERS, just these SYMBOLS. Mind you, the whole card was not recorded this way, just 5 holes.

I rounded up the all of the cardmates and after they explained to me what each symbol meant, I verified that their total (which they DID write in the form of a number) was correct. They apparently saw nothing wrong with their card or their system of scoring. Then they watched in horror as I added a 2 stroke penalty for not using actual numbers on their card. Yep, for each of them. Nope, not a rule book among them.

These weren't newbies either. Tournament experienced INT's. Mostly local fellas. Go figure.

I got no idea why they let one scorekeeper screw up their scorecard (or where such a habit was hatched), but you can rest assured that they checked it carefully on the second round.

Ron

Just put an enneahectaenneacontakaienneagon on the card for each...

I had a card turned in at our last tournament with a set of notations that I had never seen before; one of the players --- for the 5 holes that he personally recorded---- wrote a "p" for par, drew a circle for birdie, and drew a square for a bogey. No NUMBERS, just these SYMBOLS. Mind you, the whole card was not recorded this way, just 5 holes.

I rounded up the all of the cardmates and after they explained to me what each symbol meant, I verified that their total (which they DID write in the form of a number) was correct. They apparently saw nothing wrong with their card or their system of scoring. Then they watched in horror as I added a 2 stroke penalty for not using actual numbers on their card. Yep, for each of them. Nope, not a rule book among them.

These weren't newbies either. Tournament experienced INT's. Mostly local fellas. Go figure.

I got no idea why they let one scorekeeper screw up their scorecard (or where such a habit was hatched), but you can rest assured that they checked it carefully on the second round.

Ron
Kudos for penalizing them. Some people don't realize that the scoring penalty isn't just for mis-added cards, it's for incomplete or incorrectly marked scorecards. It says right in the rule that the use of anything other than numerals representing the number of throws+penalties on each hole is considered an incorrect score.

I've seen all kinds of things on scorecards over the years. I run an instructional tournament every summer where we go over the rules, including proper scoring, before the rounds. Since the tournament's goal is to draw casual players into the tournament scene, there's no shortage of different ways in which people will mark their scores. And despite the explicit and emphatic instruction about scoring, it never fails that we have one group every year that brings in a scorecard marked with dashes and slashes, plusses and minuses, circles and squares, or some other strange manner of scoring. I don't generally penalize in the first round of that tournament, but I do make it a point of rounding up the players and letting them know they would be penalized if it happened again. In the nine years of the tournament, only once has a second round scorecard come in deserving of a penalty.

All it takes is being penalized once for a player to be a whole lot more vigilant about making sure their rounds are scored properly. Of course, there are a bunch of violations/penalties that it only takes getting whacked once for players to be more aware and vigilant about the rule(s).

It looks like the Official PDGA iPhone App (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=35744) has taken on the ball golf convention of placing one or two squares around scores that are one or two over par on the hole, and circling the birdies and aces in red.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9025/scorecardw.jpg

So I guess that is where disc golf is officially headed. :confused:

I think it makes sense in the app versus a scorecard because we know the markings will consistently be done the same way no matter where you are in the world and it's also easier to see what's happening on a small screen. Future versions might have a little turkey icon flashing with three birds in a row and tiny icicles dripping from a score of 8... (j/k)

It looks like the Official PDGA iPhone App (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=35744) has taken on the ball golf convention of placing one or two squares around scores that are one or two over par on the hole, and circling the birdies and aces in red. [/IMG]

So I guess that is where disc golf is officially headed. :confused: And the problem with this is what? That's how it should be done, and it's easy to do. Ball golf does it that way including video games. Maybe this will get the East Coast to stop doing it backwards by circling bogies and then we can all be on the same page.

Just a follow up here about messy scorecard... played a tournament this weekend, and on a specific hole there was a MONDO to land IN either a island fairway or island green. Failure to land IN, was automatic re-tee. I heard scores of 5 to 11 on said hole. Now imagine how that score would look if you marked for every OB stoke as well as the score.

Also, does OB dictate the order on the next hole? Player C shoots a 4 and Player A shoots a "circle" 4 (player went OB). Does Player C (4) get the box before Player A("cirlce" 4) because Player A went OB on the last hole? This was another thing mentioned that I never heard before.

The number of penalties has no bearing on throwing order.

The rules require penalties to be marked. It shouldn't take more than 2 characters to do so unless the player has at least 10 penalties. If a player has 3 ,4 or even 5 penalties, a small 3P, 4P or 5P can be added to the corner of the scoring box.

Scores with penalties don't have any higher or lower value for determining honors in sanctioned play than scores without penalties. However, when we play our unsanctioned Mulligan Stew event, a player who shoots a score without using a mulligan gets honors over a score that included a mulligan.

Or a different term used---IF it is the intent not to mark penalty throws for O.B. & Mando. Because missing a Mando looks to me to be a "rule infraction"; the rule says you must pass on the correct side, you don't, you get a penalty.

If the intent is to indicate all additions to your score in addition to actual throws---which has always been my assumption---then O.B. penalties should be marked. Somehow.
missing a mando is not a rules infraction. It's a bad shot on the course, just as is an OB throw or a 50' drive on a wide open 300' hole. There is a stroke penalty, but it's not a rules infraction.

However, 804.03C requires all penalty throws to be indicated on the card so it doesn't really matter whether the penalty comes from a rules infraction or a "bad" throw.

I think this is one of our most silly rules. When I get a penalty stroke that gives me a bogey I write a 4 in the space for the hole and put a random dot on the back of the card to be in full compliance.

I think this is one of our most silly rules. Yeah I agree. When I get a 4 with one penalty stroke for going OB or missing a mando and the scorekeeper asks for my score, I just tell them 4. Then the obvious question is asked, "a 4P?", which I reply "does it matter?".

804.03C The scorekeeper shall record the score for each player on each hole as the total number of throws, including penalty throws. Score (total number) = Throws + Penalty Throws

Nothing above indicates that the scorekeeper has to mark a "P" in this situation.

804.03D Warnings and penalty throws given to a player for rules infractions shall be noted on the scorecard. Just because you receive a penalty stroke does not mean that it is a rule infraction. I can choose an optional rethrow. No rule infraction there, but I get a penalty stroke. Is it a rule infraction if I lose my disc, or my discs goes OB?

804.03C The scorekeeper shall record the score for each player on each hole as the total number of throws, including penalty throws. Score (total number) = Throws + Penalty Throws

Nothing above indicates that the scorekeeper has to mark a "P" in this situation.

804.03D Warnings and penalty throws given to a player for rules infractions shall be noted on the scorecard. Just because you receive a penalty stroke does not mean that it is a rule infraction. I can choose an optional rethrow. No rule infraction there, but I get a penalty stroke. Is it a rule infraction if I lose my disc, or my discs goes OB?

A rules infraction is different from a lost disc, or OB. Totally different. A rules infraction is etiquette, foot fault, wrong lie, wrong basket, etc. Errant throws are penalized, yes, but they are not rules infractions. So, yeah, you do have to mark penalties and warnings. That would seem to include OBs, mandos missed, and lost discs, although probably not in reality.

The reason for marking warnings and penalties has been discussed above.

A rules infraction is different from a lost disc, or OB. Totally different. A rules infraction is etiquette, foot fault, wrong lie, wrong basket, etc. Errant throws are penalized, yes, but they are not rules infractions. So, yeah, you do have to mark penalties and warnings. That would seem to include OBs, mandos missed, and lost discs, although probably not in reality.

The reason for marking warnings and penalties has been discussed above.
I'm not sure why we're making a distinction between some penalties and others as being rules infractions or not. If it's not an infraction of the rules, then why is it penalized? Whether it is a foot fault or an OB shot, a courtesy violation or a missed mando, the player has done something that he isn't supposed to do according to the rules and is punished for it. They're all rules infractions, they all must be noted on the scorecard in some manner.

I'm not sure why we're making a distinction between some penalties and others as being rules infractions or not. If it's not an infraction of the rules, then why is it penalized? Whether it is a foot fault or an OB shot, a courtesy violation or a missed mando, the player has done something that he isn't supposed to do according to the rules and is punished for it. They're all rules infractions, they all must be noted on the scorecard in some manner.

Yes, but they are different, at the same time. Some are things you CAN do, but have to pay the price (OB, missed mando), while foot faults, wrong lie, courtesy, are things you are not supposed to do at all. There is a distinction, but yes, they all are supposed to be marked on the card somehow, somewhere.
Double circles are silly, and in reality OBs and mandos mean little except for statistics, esp related to the course design. Foot faults, courtesy, things like that, can affect the player overall, in terms of DQ or censure by the powers that be. It certainly is important that they be indicated.

What's the answer? I have no clue. The cards with double and triple circles are a nightmare, and too many markings in the box make it too hard to read.
There must be a solution. Maybe a committee should be formed...:eek:

Yes, but they are different, at the same time. Some are things you CAN do, but have to pay the price (OB, missed mando), while foot faults, wrong lie, courtesy, are things you are not supposed to do at all. There is a distinction, but yes, they all are supposed to be marked on the card somehow, somewhere.
Technically speaking, you're not supposed to throw OB or miss mandos at all either. You can foot fault. You can throw from the wrong lie. You can act discourteously. And all three of those things you must pay the price for.

How again are they the "same, but different"? Seems a silly distinction to bother to make.

Fine. There is no distinction. You win. Hope you're satisfied.

Technically speaking, you're not supposed to throw OB or miss mandos at all either. You can foot fault. You can throw from the wrong lie. You can act discourteously. And all three of those things you must pay the price for.

How again are they the "same, but different"? Seems a silly distinction to bother to make.

Missing a mando, throwing OB, foot faulting and throwing from the wrong lie are unintentional mistakes. Acting discourteously is a concscious effort.

"804.03C The scorekeeper shall record the score for each player on each hole as the total number of throws, including penalty throws. Score (total number) = Throws + Penalty Throws"

I'm thinking that the use of the wording "penalty throws" should be changed (come the next revision) because there are no "throws" executed during forementioned "penalty throws". There ARE however "penalty shots / strokes / points / whatever you want to call them" assessed.

Looking at it this way may clear up a little of the ambiguity of the situation.

Karl