I know PDGA subsidizes discgolfplanet.tv, and I am hugely supportive of the effort. I'm a lifetime member, and I will gladly give more money to discgolfplanet.tv any time they like. I'm also usually very forgiving of the frequent issues that seem to cause problems with the broadcasts, I know the crew doesn't have time to work out the bugs in advance, and they're just going by the seat of their pants when every new broadcast begins, so we should expect a few bumps and glitches.

But this time I am getting really very angry. They are asking for $7.95 to help pay for coverage of 2013 Worlds. Don't get me wrong, I really really really really want to pay them and get this coverage! However, their payment system is malfunctioning, and for some unknown reason they will not process my payments. It seems that some people can make payments, but I cannot (and I'm not alone), and it is beginning to drive me crazy because my friends are playing and I really want to watch them. I have tried contacting discgolfplanet.tv through every avenue possible (e-mail, Facebook, etc.), but they don't reply, and every repeated attempt I make to do another payment fails again and again. I'm at a complete loss.

This is the kind of glitch that ruins everything, because it prevents people from giving DGP.TV money (which they need!), and because when it doesn't work the persons who wish to give them money cannot watch the broadcast. And apparently, DGP.TV crew is too busy with the broadcast to deal with such glitches. They've made a policy which doesn't have a safety valve, and it is becoming catastrophic.

Any suggestions for what I can do? And others like me in the same situation?

I know PDGA subsidizes discgolfplanet.tv, and I am hugely supportive of the effort. I'm a lifetime member, and I will gladly give more money to discgolfplanet.tv any time they like. I'm also usually very forgiving of the frequent issues that seem to cause problems with the broadcasts, I know the crew doesn't have time to work out the bugs in advance, and they're just going by the seat of their pants when every new broadcast begins, so we should expect a few bumps and glitches.

But this time I am getting really very angry. They are asking for $7.95 to help pay for coverage of 2013 Worlds. Don't get me wrong, I really really really really want to pay them and get this coverage! However, their payment system is malfunctioning, and for some unknown reason they will not process my payments. It seems that some people can make payments, but I cannot (and I'm not alone), and it is beginning to drive me crazy because my friends are playing and I really want to watch them. I have tried contacting discgolfplanet.tv through every avenue possible (e-mail, Facebook, etc.), but they don't reply, and every repeated attempt I make to do another payment fails again and again. I'm at a complete loss.

This is the kind of glitch that ruins everything, because it prevents people from giving DGP.TV money (which they need!), and because when it doesn't work the persons who wish to give them money cannot watch the broadcast. And apparently, DGP.TV crew is too busy with the broadcast to deal with such glitches. They've made a policy which doesn't have a safety valve, and it is becoming catastrophic.

Any suggestions for what I can do? And others like me in the same situation?

My assumption is that the payment system isn't something they (JD & the DGP crew) control. They input their price points, obviously, but I think the actual processing of payments is something done by Todocast, at least that's what showed up on my statement when it ran my debit card. So my suggestion would be to try to find some sort of contact for Todocast and see if they can do anything.

My assumption is that the payment system isn't something they (JD & the DGP crew) control. They input their price points, obviously, but I think the actual processing of payments is something done by Todocast, at least that's what showed up on my statement when it ran my debit card. So my suggestion would be to try to find some sort of contact for Todocast and see if they can do anything.

I've tried Todocast.tv, and thus far they are equally unresponsive.

For those people who are lucky enough to connect, I have been hearing that the broadcasts are, once again, very spotty and poor quality thus far. This is unfortunate to hear about.

Does anyone know how much is the annual PDGA subsidy to DGP.TV? It seems to be a critical component of the growth strategy, but I'm beginning to wonder if it is not better to bid out the contract annually? In fact, probably all of the PDGA subcontracted services should be subject to annual bidding requirements, and conducted in an open and transparent way (I'm concerned that PDGA's under-the-table good ol' boy network image is holding back the organization, since it scares off potentially powerful collaborations). Other subcontracted services (e.g., online registration) should be brought in-house (e.g., managed by Steve Ganz, or hire additional staff if he needs help).

This is total BS! It has never worked right and they asking for MORE $$ for this crappy service? pDGA subsidizes DGP and pDGA members & DGP lifetimers STILL have to pay?? BS!!

" Bad & unethical business! " and the pDGA supports this!

Delivering live coverage of disc golf is really really tough. And expensive. And clearly frustrating for those trying to deliver it. I definitely sympathize with John Duesler and his crew. But clearly they've bitten off more than they can chew, we simply don't have the resources to deliver clean live coverage, every event is a major fiasco on one level, or another.

Maybe todocast.tv is a big part of the problem? They are the main conduit for the delivery of DGP.TV live feed, and I suspect they might not be quite up to snuff for the demanding task of broadcasting live disc golf. But maybe there are no better options? Or the next best option is 10X or 100X more costly? I'd love to know.

Perhaps the sport isn't ready for live coverage, just yet. There are a lot of great video crews who tape, edit, and put together wonderful post-event videos. I wonder how great a job they could do if they had the resources and subsidies of DGP.TV? They could surely deliver superior results, but of course it would be after the event. But I think a well-enough funded and organized crew could deliver it very very fast, especially if they have some practice and good organization. For example, filming multiple camera angles, digitally tagging their clips (e.g., round=1, card=23, player=2, shot=3, camera=1), uploading the segments to the editing crew, commenting can be added as needed, etc.. I'll bet you can have top notch video of a round available by the next day. And it would be guaranteed to work, there would be few glitches. And, unlike the attempts at live feeds, we are less likely to completely miss swaths of an important round...all shots would be recorded for posterity.

So the question is...how badly do we need to see it live? At what cost? I admit there is great value to watching something live, but it isn't so valuable when it the service is degraded on so many levels (difficulties with the sign-in, membership, payments, freezing of the live stream, archives not available on demand, etc., etc..).

Maybe one day, when I have some free time (HAH!), I'll run for PDGA board on a slate of making the contracts transparent and with strict bidding requirements and moving jobs in-house as much as possible.

Maybe todocast.tv is a big part of the problem? They are the main conduit for the delivery of DGP.TV live feed, and I suspect they might not be quite up to snuff for the demanding task of broadcasting live disc golf. But maybe there are no better options? Or the next best option is 10X or 100X more costly? I'd love to know.

Todocast is only used for Worlds. It's generally a better delivery system than their free broadcasts at livestream.com, that's why it is PPV.

The issues with this year's broadcast aren't on todocast, it's the internet connection at the park. It simply isn't strong enough or big enough to handle the output needed for the stream to be seamless. Now some are going to argue that this is something that DGP should have realized in test phase and tried to remedy, but the reality is that perhaps it wasn't remediable by go time. Or perhaps the infrastructure just doesn't exist in that area to handle it no matter who they called or what they could pay for a solution. After all, there are still parts of the country for which high speed internet is not up to the standards we see in the more highly populated areas...this area appears to be one of them.

The alternative to what we've seen this week would be for them to shut down production, refund the early-bird subscribers and we'd be without any live video coverage. Instead, they're muddling through with the weak connection and making us deal with the occasional drops and frequent buffering. The result is that there is 35-40 hours worth of Worlds coverage in the archive that is perfectly watchable, even just 10 minutes behind the "live" timer. It's just not ideal to watch it "live" because of the buffering. A small inconvenience, IMO, for the chance to watch this now rather than sit around and wait for who knows how long for a DVD or a youtube upload to appear so we can watch it knowing exactly what the results will be.

They have the footage for the stuff that got lost by the feed dropping. If you watched the replay of the semis this afternoon during the break in live action, you'd see that while the original live broadcast lost hole 9 and the beginning of 10 due to a drop in the stream, the replay had it. DGP, if they wanted to, could re-up the entire recorded broadcast on a clean feed and we would be able to watch all the holes that were lost or skipped due to the stream problems. I wouldn't be surprised if they did just that.

I'm not going to argue that DGP is perfect by any means. They've made plenty of mistakes along the way. They've also done a lot of things that no one else has been or has even tried to do in disc golf to date. I think sometimes expectations are way too high for the stage at which disc golf is at. Relative to television broadcasts of other sports (the ones we all aspire to see disc golf achieve), disc golf is on a shoestring budget...and the overwhelming reaction anytime that actual figures from that low budget are brought to light is everyone screaming that it costs way too much.

We can't have it both ways. We can't dream of things that cost significant money then cry about attempts that fall short in many ways because the budget isn't there to do much better. I'm all for bigger and better regardless of where it comes from. I'm also all for supporting those that strive for it, even if sometimes they stumble along the way.

...it's the internet connection at the park. It simply isn't strong enough or big enough to handle the output needed for the stream to be seamless. Now some are going to argue that this is something that DGP should have realized in test phase and tried to remedy, but the reality is that perhaps it wasn't remediable by go time. Or perhaps the infrastructure just doesn't exist in that area to handle it no matter who they called or what they could pay for a solution. After all, there are still parts of the country for which high speed internet is not up to the standards we see in the more highly populated areas...this area appears to be one of them.

I agree, the internet is not well-developed in many parts of the USA, and many rural areas in particular cannot handle an internet broadcast, even one as small as the DGP.TV feed (a pitiful situation...but that's another conversation, entirely). Americans are unfortunately extremely ignorant about it, those who live in big cities have decent internet (though certainly not great, by international standards) and don't know about such issues in other parts of the country. People in those other parts of the country don't really know what they're missing, so they're not as outraged as they ought to be.

In any case, reliance upon local internet is clearly not a good model in the internet-poor USA, and perhaps this weak link needs to be replaced by another? The big TV networks upload their feeds directly to satellites from communications vans...could we lease a rig and satellite feed like this for DGP.TV? I'd certainly be willing to pay more to see it happen.

The alternative to what we've seen this week would be for them to shut down production, refund the early-bird subscribers and we'd be without any live video coverage. Instead, they're muddling through with the weak connection and making us deal with the occasional drops and frequent buffering. The result is that there is 35-40 hours worth of Worlds coverage in the archive that is perfectly watchable, even just 10 minutes behind the "live" timer. It's just not ideal to watch it "live" because of the buffering. A small inconvenience, IMO, for the chance to watch this now rather than sit around and wait for who knows how long for a DVD or a youtube upload to appear so we can watch it knowing exactly what the results will be.

There are some who would rather not do live feeds at all, if they can't be done right. What we have now is somewhat of an embarassment for our sport, when it should instead be a great way to promote it. Anyone looking at this from the outside is going to laugh their asses off, and think disc golf is a huge joke.

They have the footage for the stuff that got lost by the feed dropping. If you watched the replay of the semis this afternoon during the break in live action, you'd see that while the original live broadcast lost hole 9 and the beginning of 10 due to a drop in the stream, the replay had it. DGP, if they wanted to, could re-up the entire recorded broadcast on a clean feed and we would be able to watch all the holes that were lost or skipped due to the stream problems. I wouldn't be surprised if they did just that.

Now here I'm going to disagree quite strongly, even when the feed that they wished to otherwise transmit is restored after-the-fact, there are still enormous gaps in coverage. The same is true of any DVDs ever produced. What you see at the end of the day is still just a digest, a distillation, you will never ever see much of the action. There are some of us who would like to be able to watch every single shot, of every player, on all lead cards, in every division. We have come close to having this level of coverage for several tournaments, by people who were doing it for free, with their own equipment, with no support from subscribers, and no subsidies from the PDGA...of course it takes them a while to upload the edited versions to youtube since they have day jobs and limited free time. But, what if they were paid for their services? If they had the same resources as DGP.TV (indeed, including many of the same people in their scheme), it seems like it should be possible to get all the action, in a far more organized fashion, in a much shorter time period (i.e., next day), and with 99% reliability.

I'm not going to argue that DGP is perfect by any means. They've made plenty of mistakes along the way. They've also done a lot of things that no one else has been or has even tried to do in disc golf to date. I think sometimes expectations are way too high for the stage at which disc golf is at. Relative to television broadcasts of other sports (the ones we all aspire to see disc golf achieve), disc golf is on a shoestring budget...and the overwhelming reaction anytime that actual figures from that low budget are brought to light is everyone screaming that it costs way too much.

We can't have it both ways. We can't dream of things that cost significant money then cry about attempts that fall short in many ways because the budget isn't there to do much better. I'm all for bigger and better regardless of where it comes from. I'm also all for supporting those that strive for it, even if sometimes they stumble along the way.

No doubt, but that's why I pose the question...should we:
A) Keep these half-assed "live" broadcasts that are inherently ill-posed owing to weak internet connectivity,
B) Pay more money for better reliable feeds and let the DGP.TV crew focus on improving the production itself,
C) Admit that we can't support live feeds yet, and move to a model of paying camera and editing crews to give us a complete access to every throw on every leader card in every division, with great reliability, but only available the day after it happens?

The cost of A and C are about the same as at present. Option B would cost more money. If B can be supported, then I'm all for it. But if it can't, then I much prefer option C over option A.

I think the membership should be able to express their views on this topic, and I'm sure they will...although the backlash from the botched finals coverage might give rise to an emotional response, and worse fallout for the entire operation. I hope everyone can be more constructive.

Check out Peter Shive's election thread for more information on PDGA funding of DGPTV and possible alternatives

Pulling the plug on DGP.tv would be a mistake in my opinion. While it is still far from perfect, I think the coverage from this years worlds has shown that they have improved drastically. Yes they still have some technical challenges that need to be fixed, but I am confident that they will be fixed at some point. At the moment I think that these difficulties for the most part are outside of the control of DGP.tv, but they still deliver a reasonable product. And the archived footage is probably as close to what you are asking as you are gonna get. The free videos on youtube are not going to follow all lead cards either, not even if they got paid by the PDGA

Pulling the plug on DGP.tv would be a mistake in my opinion. While it is still far from perfect, I think the coverage from this years worlds has shown that they have improved drastically. Yes they still have some technical challenges that need to be fixed, but I am confident that they will be fixed at some point. At the moment I think that these difficulties for the most part are outside of the control of DGP.tv, but they still deliver a reasonable product. And the archived footage is probably as close to what you are asking as you are gonna get. The free videos on youtube are not going to follow all lead cards either, not even if they got paid by the PDGA

A rare voice arguing for the status quo...

Anyways, I disagree, and I suspect you set the bar very low for what is possible. The coverage was almost unwatchable 3 out of 5 days. It was much better in 2012, and last year included broader coverage of other events. During every day of 2013 broadcast, there were long spells where the feed froze completely. Even when it was working, it was only with a 10 minute or longer buffer and constant pinwheels.

Also, I don't think you understand what you're missing out on, DGP.TV is very sparse coverage. The free videos on youtube already offer nearly complete coverage for some tournaments, much more than DGP.TV has ever offered. For example, in California a crew is already nearly on the cusp of delivering video of every shot of every player on every leader card...Central Coast (they have a Youtube channel, it is easy to find) alone has posted complete coverage of 2013 Masters Cup for both MPO and FPO (btw...DGP.TV delivered zero coverage of this NT), in addition to some Masters and Grandmasters (though these are not yet complete, they could be if they have a few more people helping out). They do it all on their own dime, if they had the resources of DGP.TV, then crews like this one could take coverage to the next level. There are so many amateur disc golf videographers out there nowadays, the competition between them for winning the Worlds broadcast contract would be awesome, and yield much better results. The worst thing for PDGA is lack of competition in its contracted services, we need to bring in others to bid and compete for this subsidy in a transparent manner (which will, in turn, attract more outside expertise...the way things are done now, people who could really help us are instead turned away).