Howdy folks! Your favorite poster on probation here. For the Puppetmaster's sake I will now identify myself for those too clueless to click the link to my PDGA number: Michael Kernan, #14304.

Over the years I've seen the PDGA continually raise its membership fees. That would be fine, if the membership was actually seeing some benefit to their extra payments. However, the PDGA continues to plod along with just about no improvement; it can even be argued that this organization has been driven straight into the dirt and is being looted by the PDGA's inner circle who think nothing of travelling the globe on the membership's dime for their deeds. Financial disclosure is almost non-existent.

Do we need the staff flying to Europe and Japan on our dime? I'd rather see financial reports completed on time and available to the members. Hopefully a few of you will read this post before it is deleted as offensive and tell me how I can properly protest the Board of Directors' unchecked greed.

Thanks.

...and tell me how I can properly protest the Board of Directors' unchecked greed.

Thanks.


Don't get banned... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I would say that statement is incorrect, giving the P.D.G.A. the bennifit of dought (Me not knowing the facts)
I would thing the B.O.D. is not using pdga dues to fly to different areas.
I do see some of the b.o.d. at events across the big pond, but surely on their own dime

I'm surprised this thread has lasted this long. Vinnie, how about you ask one of the inner circle to disclose the staff's expenses, before assuming anything? You know, use your head for something other than a shiny mirror? I doubt they'll let me see it, although I'm a paid and active member...and you know they'll say it's none of my business, because who the hell am I? Just a dues-paying member with the right to know---but does that mean anything to the inner circle?

even if it is at our cost, don't we want marshalls at a/nt events?

What is the proper way to protest the continued unchecked greed of the PDGA?



Step 1 - Change your screen name to something shorter than "This_Display_Name_Contains_No_Offensive_Words." More people will read your posts if you're not screwing up their view of the message board.

Step 2 - Run for a BOD position and push for change from within the organization.

Step 3 - Protest with your dollars if you're unhappy enough to do so. Don't renew and don't play PDGA events.

If it were such a gold mine, you'd think people would be clamoring to join the BOD gravy train. But it's not happening for some reason. I wonder if it's because these volunteers spend way more valuable time than the value of the occasional dinners and travel that you imagine. Yes, some PDGA Staff have traveled to Europe and Japan on business and personally paid for their pleasure (entry fees) if they played. International PDGA membership is growing fast. One of their complaints has been being ignored in terms of PDGA contact and support. Now that the org can afford to send representatives to support their expansion efforts, you hold that against them, especially when the international players are paying membership fees just like Georgia players?

Step 1 would be greatly appreciated.

Step 2 may have already been attempted.

Step 3 would not accomplish any improvement in the organization.

I don't know if Board members travel is paid for attending things other than Board meetings, I hope Marshalls are chosen with some attention to travel costs.

I don't think that paying for either is an unreasonable expense. I alos think the PDGA needs to be doing more to make the the world outside of North America an active part of the PDGA.

Step 3 - Protest with your dollars if you're unhappy enough to do so. Don't renew and don't play PDGA events.



If only that was really an option. While I'm not a great professional player, if I was, I'd have no choice but to join this overpriced, looted organization, because just about every high-paying tournament where a pro player would attempt to make a living is an A-tier or major, in which participation requires PDGA membership. A de facto closed shop, if you will. Closed, remarkably similar to the minds of those who hold the power of the PDGA checkbook---and they don't want us to know how our dues are spent.

Surely you must realize that it's not by posting such inflammatory and offensive drivel. Then again, based on seeing it over and over, I guess you don't.

Financial disclosure is presented in the magazine. I, as one PDGA member, would not want to see any PDGA resources wasted on trying to appease someone who is taking an approach such as this thread. It would be about as productive as trying to teach pigs to sing, and I'm sure that the people we elected have far better and more productive things to do.

You are a member, great. But why would your grandstanding be allowed to take time away from servicing the interests of the rest of the paying PDGA membership? Just because you throw a better tantrum? Grow up.

Step 3 - Protest with your dollars if you're unhappy enough to do so. Don't renew and don't play PDGA events.


Step 3 would not accomplish any improvement in the organization.



I disagree. If enough members feel the same way and boycott the PDGA, it would cause the organization to respond to those concerns.

Surely you must realize that it's not by posting such inflammatory and offensive drivel. Then again, based on seeing it over and over, I guess you don't.

Financial disclosure is presented in the magazine. I, as one PDGA member, would not want to see any PDGA resources wasted on trying to appease someone who is taking an approach such as this thread. It would be about as productive as trying to teach pigs to sing, and I'm sure that the people we elected have far better and more productive things to do.

You are a member, great. But why would your grandstanding be allowed to take time away from servicing the interests of the rest of the paying PDGA membership? Just because you throw a better tantrum? Grow up.




Financial disclosure in the magazine is not complete. If the PDGA's money was your own, you would not settle for the vague report offered as disclosure by the inner circle. As the Puppetmaster would say, "I've got so much experience with non-profits it makes my opinion the gold standard", and in fact, as the President of a non-profit organization with a $3,000,000 budget this year, I know what the meaning of disclosure is and I know that the membership of the PDGA is not getting the disclosure that it deserves and is also entitled to under the law. If that is a waste of your time, so be it. But for those of us who are forced to join this organization, it is a crime.

Yes, some PDGA Staff have traveled to Europe and Japan on business and personally paid for their pleasure (entry fees) if they played. International PDGA membership is growing fast. One of their complaints has been being ignored in terms of PDGA contact and support.



That's interesting Chuck. I'm glad you and the inner circle ignore international players as much as you ignore the domestic ones. Care to send me a PDGA financial report that discloses everything required by the laws of the state of Colorado?

You are not forced any more than I or anyone else is. You seem to be the only one with the 'problem'.

IMO, the crime here is that malcontents continue to utilize this resource to paint the PDGA in a bad light in an unprofessional and irresponsible manner while the majority has to put up with the toilet this site often becomes because of it.

Don't like it? Then use your vote and change it. If the majority doesn't agree with you and you don't get your way, either deal with it in a professional and dignified manner, or discontinue your association.

Please refer to my above post when I stated as a professional disc golfer, I have no choice but to join this organization, since membership is required to play in the richest disc golf events.

*** You are ignoring this user ***



My apologies to everyone for forgetting to ignore anyone I previously forgot should be ignored. I'm sure he'll go berserk in a month or two and get banned again.

The way you ignore a user is you click on their name, look for the "Ignore this Loser" and then click on that. I'm not ignoring you Tim.

Please keep in mind that I am also classified as a 'professional disc golfer', and that such classification probably correlates as much to how I make my living as it does for you.

Also keep in mind that the PDGA represents more than 'professionals', and that there are probably less than 50 true 'professionals' in this sport.

I think the best approach is for all of us to recognize a troll when we see one and not feed it. It is amazing how fast a thread will disappear into oblivion if no one posts on it. It will still be there, but buried under tons of other topics. No action needed from the moderators.

If left unfed, trolls usually ratchet up their rhetoric to a level were they will be banned (where they should be). The hope would be that they would ratchet down their bile and pose their otherwise worthy questions/points in a more mature manner, but it usually does not happen that way.

Here is how you recognize a troll (from Wikipedia):
In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory, off-topic, insulting, or otherwise inappropriate messages.

Care to send me a PDGA financial report that discloses everything required by the laws of the state of Colorado?



Send an email to rdeckerATpdga.com (You know to remove the "AT" and insert a "@" in its place). I know Bob Decker (PDGA Director in charge of such things) has mailed over 40 such reports to members in the last year.

Chap

Thanks Chap. Care to inform me what BOD members voted for the latest membership increase?

Please refer to my above post when I stated as a professional disc golfer, I have no choice but to join this organization, since membership is required to play in the richest disc golf events.



You had a choice and choose to join, with your skill as a Disc Golf you would never a chance to cash anyways :o:D

Care to send me a PDGA financial report that discloses everything required by the laws of the state of Colorado?



Send an email to rdeckerATpdga.com (You know to remove the "AT" and insert a "@" in its place). I know Bob Decker (PDGA Director in charge of such things) has mailed over 40 such reports to members in the last year.

Chap

you can also send one to me. as the director charged with fulfilling the oversight duties that used to go with the Oversight Director, i should be able to get you that information.

Step 1 - Change your screen name to something shorter than "This_Display_Name_Contains_No_Offensive_Words." More people will read your posts if you're not screwing up their view of the message board.



I'd also appreciate the changing of the avatar. It's hard for me to take someone's ranting seroiusly when Rodney Dangerfield is staring at me at every turn...

Thanks Chap. Care to inform me what BOD members voted for the latest membership increase?



I'm not Chap, but all of them did.

It's documented here (http://www.pdga.com/documents/boardminutes/2006-03-01BODMeetingMinutesApproved.pdf) as a unanimous passage.

We all agreed on the increase. I preferred an increase to $60/$50/$40 (Pro/Am/Jr.), but in the end the $75/$50/$25 was the motion that won out and went to the floor for a vote, and it passed unanimously.

and, I AM Chap

Just demonstrating that you don't have to be part of the "inner circle" to find the minutes.

Care to send me a PDGA financial report that discloses everything required by the laws of the state of Colorado?



Send an email to rdeckerATpdga.com (You know to remove the "AT" and insert a "@" in its place). I know Bob Decker (PDGA Director in charge of such things) has mailed over 40 such reports to members in the last year.

Chap

you can also send one to me. as the director charged with fulfilling the oversight duties that used to go with the Oversight Director, i should be able to get you that information.



Pat, could you post it as a service to the membership (and in order to save time and energy mailing it out to each request entails) -- or would a conscientious, disclosure-loving member need to receive it and then post it him or herself?

Michael yoo so funny. I agree. Should we know when someone gets a raise? Should the membership be informed when a general conractor gets paid $10,000? Uh, YEAH.

Should members be given transparent financial information about their organization? Yeah. Once they told us we wouldn't even care anymore. Unless they really are spending huge wads of cash without practically anyone knowing. I don't even know how many people know where the money goes. I sure don't. (Wonder if Steve does?) Hey Steve, do you know where the PDGA's money goes?

What we get from the minutes is And then we went into executive session. Hey Mikey when you get that info pass it on to me so I can post it at NEFA.com when I get banned from the next Kangaroo Conference Call on Dec 6 where the king's sycophants will be making up new penalties for me and my particular transgressions.

Pat, could you post it as a service to the membership (and in order to save time and energy mailing it out to each request entails) -- or would a conscientious, disclosure-loving member need to receive it and then post it him or herself?



I don't think it's something you could post online, at least not easily. It'll probably be in a printed format. There really ought to be some form of the financial report posted in a members only section. The fact that we really don't have such a section on the message board is probably why it's not posted already.

Chap

Interestingly enough, I have gotten this request from several members (keep the ideas coming!) and last week asked Theo to put this on the agenda for our teleconference next week.

Maybe soon we will have some sort of financial info available on the website.

Pat, could you post it as a service to the membership (and in order to save time and energy mailing it out to each request entails) -- or would a conscientious, disclosure-loving member need to receive it and then post it him or herself?



I don't think it's something you could post online, at least not easily. It'll probably be in a printed format. There really ought to be some form of the financial report posted in a members only section. The fact that we really don't have such a section on the message board is probably why it's not posted already.

Chap



it is kind of interesting that Colorado law says members have a right to financial disclosure. does the Colorado law also say it must be available to the public? Bruce?

ymmv, but it seems to me such info isn't readily available because the modus operandi of the PDGA leadership heretofor has been to keep things behind closed doors because of the apparent idea that the members are a bunch of whiny critics who aren't very qualified to assess the leadership's performance anyways.

Michael yoo so funny. I agree. Should we know when someone gets a raise? Should the membership be informed when a general contractor gets paid $10,000? Uh, YEAH.



What level of transparency do you want? Do you want just the large transactions over a certain amount, or does staff need to tell you when they go out and buy ball point pens for the office? Or will a line of $X for office supplies suffice in an annual report?

I honestly don't know what you guys want exactly, but there is a point where a high level of transparency makes it impossible for staff to do their jobs, because they're taking all of their time to make sure they're "transparent". I think asking how much the organization is spending on certain things is good. I think asking them to tell you every line item transaction is an extremely inefficient use of their time.

As far as I know, the only time we ever went into executive session, was on personnel issues with staff.

Chap

the apparent idea that the members are a bunch of whiny critics who aren't very qualified to assess the leadership's performance anyways.



Most of the time, a lot of us do a pretty good job of embodying that...

the apparent idea that the members are a bunch of whiny critics who aren't very qualified to assess the leadership's performance anyways.



Most of the time, a lot of us do a pretty good job of embodying that...



do you really feel that way or are you just saying that to fit into the inner circle? :eek:

most of the membership is pretty silent. if you are referring to most of us who particpate regularly on the DISCussion Board, then you are viewing what we are mostly about through a very distorted lens. there is a lot of information sharing and idea brainstorming that goes on here -- if you look for it.

take Terry for example -- you could use one lens to show he is a complaining adverserial whiner; or you could use another to show he is an informed, experienced, generous helpful poster.

i will grant you though that when the motion passed to ban non-members from posting here and we lost Felix Sung (aka: <font color="blue"> fore </font> ) we lost a significant presence modeling how easily competent information can be disseminated through a site like this...

it is kind of interesting that Colorado law says members have a right to financial disclosure. does the Colorado law also say it must be available to the public? Bruce?



Again, I'm not an attorney, but the PDGA is not publicly traded, so I don't think the financial info is required to be made public. Made available to members, yes. Public, no. I know there is some limited information made available to the public for all non-profit corporations.


ymmv, but it seems to me such info isn't readily available because the modus operandi of the PDGA leadership heretofor has been to keep things behind closed doors because of the apparent idea that the members are a bunch of whiny critics who aren't very qualified to assess the leadership's performance anyways.



I refuse to accept your premise. Our summit meetings in Arizona the last few years have been open to the public, we've had open meetings at Worlds, and I assure you, the teleconferences aren't really any different than those. While I haven't always responded to the message board, I have put my email, phone, and address out there for people to ask me questions. Some people took advantage of this, most of you didn't. I always respond to those questions. I don't have time to respond to all of the millions of threads on this message board. It takes too long to wade through the message board to find them....it's inefficient. I prefer to deal with people directly. I feel as though I've been transparent. There should be some burden on the members to ask DIRECT questions if they want information. The message board is not the place for direct questions.

You know, I remember when we promoted events, talked to each other, played disc golf, and ran successful events WITHOUT the internet.

Chap

Responding to six posts at once,

The only executive session that occurred during the year and a half that I was on the Board had to do with employee compensation, that I remember.

I think the detail that some people would like to see would be about the same as the detail that is given to the Board at almost every meeting. Brian Hoeniger keeps the books up to date and regularly reports to the Board on how the PDGA is doing.

My salary, my boss's salary, and all the people we work with is posted on the Internet. So I'm not sure why salary information is so sensitive. I think if some people knew how little we pay our staff, they might be for paying them more, but this is coming from someone who is only making ends meet on what the internet says I earn.

As to the difficulty in someone posting the proposed budget or year end expense sheet on the internet, it's the 21st century. I think I could scan it, save it to a pdf and get it up in about 7 minutes if it was in hand. Our scanner is slow.
-------------------------

I think what this whole thing boils down to is whether the PDGA should be run more like an elected government or more like a private corporation. It is both and neither. The Board is elected and it is not like we need to protect our trade secrets from all our competitors.

ymmv, but it seems to me such info isn't readily available because the modus operandi of the PDGA leadership heretofor has been to keep things behind closed doors because of the apparent idea that the members are a bunch of whiny critics who aren't very qualified to assess the leadership's performance anyways.



I refuse to accept your premise. Our summit meetings in Arizona the last few years have been open to the public, we've had open meetings at Worlds, and I assure you, the teleconferences aren't really any different than those.

<font color="blue"> it seems to me that only opens the meetings to those above a certain income level -- i certainly can't afford to travel to Arizona or i would go to the summit meetings... unless members can be reimbursed for summit travel expenses??? </font>

While I haven't always responded to the message board, I have put my email, phone, and address out there for people to ask me questions. Some people took advantage of this, most of you didn't. I always respond to those questions. I don't have time to respond to all of the millions of threads on this message board. It takes too long to wade through the message board to find them....it's inefficient. I prefer to deal with people directly. I feel as though I've been transparent. There should be some burden on the members to ask DIRECT questions if they want information. The message board is not the place for direct questions.

<font color="blue"> you were more than helpful the time i contacted you, but i think you are misunderstanding the point. i haven't heard anyone say they want everything posted or addressed via this forum. i would like to see total travel expenses, and other things like that which the PDGA incurs each year published though it wouldn't need to be broken down to names and individual items. it would be nice though to know what is and isn't reimbursed. for example if someone is being paid to fly to Europe i'd like to know the cost of their airfare. in general, whatever the Commisioner and BoD see fit to summarize at each meeting for their own oversight is information i'd like disclosed to the membership as well. even if a lot of the membership might not read it. </font>

You know, I remember when we promoted events, talked to each other, played disc golf, and ran successful events WITHOUT the internet.

Chap



<font color="blue"> openess and transparency can be aided by the internet but doesn't require it. i took hard-copy board-cards home and then entered score info for online scoring and the electronic TD reports for the two PDGA events i co-TD'ed this year even though a laptop onsite would have made that work less redundant (if i had one i would have used it) </font>

Chap wrote: "What level of transparency do you want? Do you want just the large transactions over a certain amount, or does staff need to tell you when they go out and buy ball point pens for the office? Or will a line of $X for office supplies suffice in an annual report?"

A couple items in the aggregate would be great to know:

Total staff salaries
Travelling / tournament expenses of PDGA Staff
Anger Management classes

I still think we should get our money back on those.

Hi Terry. Bye Terry.

Spring issue of the DGWN page 63:

Personnel - 4 fulltime office staff, employer taxes, health insurance, workmen's comp, 3 consultants
2005 $189,302
2006 $216,600 (budget)

Board &amp; Committees - Summits, teleconferences, committee expenses, election, surveys, worlds &amp; other travel, directors insurance
2005 $43,704
2006 $35,800 (budget) probably down due to fall summits and staff now in Augusta and electronic voting

International - PDGA Europe/Asia/Canada development, teleconferences, travel, Japan and European Open sponsorship
2005 $4,353
2006 $11,500 (budget) Japan Open every other year

Looks like travel is mostly in these two categories. Considering the number of people included in the personnel budget and the cost for employer taxes, the salaries certainly look reasonable.

Under Colorado law the PDGA's disclosure obligation only extends to its members. It is very similar to what used to be in the Constitution.

Most non-profits that do engage in public disclosure do so voluntarily because that best works for them. It takes about five seconds to navigate to the United Way's annual report, or that of World Vision or Samaritan's Purse if you have normal good intuition.

Under Colorado law, by the way, we have to re-elect all our directors at our next annual meeting because we failed to specify a term for them in our by laws. And this is not something the Board can fix, legally, because under Colorado law only the members by voting can change their voting rights.

It will be interesting to see if the PDGA becomes a fully renegade corporation, or if they play out the hand they've dealt themselves.

the PDGA will play out the hand it dealt itself... to do otherwise would be a breach of fiduciary responsibility

Michael yoo so funny. I agree. Should we know when someone gets a raise? Should the membership be informed when a general contractor gets paid $10,000? Uh, YEAH.



What level of transparency do you want? Do you want just the large transactions over a certain amount, or does staff need to tell you when they go out and buy ball point pens for the office? Or will a line of $X for office supplies suffice in an annual report?


john makes a valid point. there is no real reason to micromanage the purchase of office supplies.

however, there are some very valid reasons to detail expenses above a certain amount.

btw, you can read the ED search announcement and from that you can make an educated guess about salaries. personally, i do not believe salary info needs to be shared. there are much more pressing concerns.

What level of transparency do you want? Do you want just the large transactions over a certain amount, or does staff need to tell you when they go out and buy ball point pens for the office? Or will a line of $X for office supplies suffice in an annual report?



Chap



Chap, thanks for taking the time to indulge us. And thanks to the monitors who have let me keep my posting privileges this long.

As far as what I want, I'll have to get back to you once I get the reports from Mr. Decker. Those reports might have everything a member deserves to know...I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction.

Now as far as the dues...call me a tightwad, call me selfish, call me anytime if your name is Tara Reid and your clothes feel like they must depart your supple form, I just would rather see dues lowered and optional services limited.

Having not seen the budget, I can't opine what optional services, like having a globe-trotting staff, are causing dues to rise beyond the point where membership becomes less like a fun hobby and more like a serious business investment.

In my lucid posts of the last couple days, I may have given the impression that I'm disenchanted with the whole PDGA. I'm not. I actually do see a lot of progress. But I think the membership needs to be sold on the value of higher dues. I honestly think the dues hike should have been put to a vote of the entire membership.

I'll finish later as events warrant...

Care to send me a PDGA financial report that discloses everything required by the laws of the state of Colorado?



Send an email to rdeckerATpdga.com (You know to remove the "AT" and insert a "@" in its place). I know Bob Decker (PDGA Director in charge of such things) has mailed over 40 such reports to members in the last year.

Chap



Mr. Chapman,

Guess what? I sent in a request to Mr. Decker just as you said. Haven't heard a peep from him as yet, but, I did get an e-mail from another BOD member saying--and I'm paraphrasing the following--that they had reviewed my request to see the reports and that I'm not entitled to see them.

So, what are they covering up this time? Don't you think this is getting beyond silly?

If you don't like how the PDGA is handling its own business, then go start your own organization and see how easy it is.

Hmmm...an interesting proposition. What should I call this new and improved organization?

#$*&$!

Absolutely Doc. So what that the PDGA has maybe two people out of over 10,000 members who actually know where the money is going? It's ridiculous for Mikey to suggest how easy it is to embezzle, steal and misappropriate PDGA funds merely because the PDGA has virtually no oversight of its financial affairs. Mikey just doesn't understand that all frisbee players are totally honest and therefore don't need to be insulted with audits and financial reviews.

Besides, without a constitution, we can't actually point out the unconstitutionality of their actions.

And even if they DID have a constitution like they used to, and even if they were completely ignoring it, there STILL wouldn't be anyone to get them to change their ways. You know why? Because the people in charge obviously know better how to handle our affairs than we do. And the way things are set up, how is anyone to find out about any wrongdoing in the first place?

Michael Kernan SHOULD start his own frisbee organization, since it's just wrong to criticize the PDGA. And all those traitors who criticize the US government should move to Canada!

#$*&$!



#$*&$! is still banned. :confused:

#$*&$!



#$*&$! is still banned. :confused:



U. D. G.

Hmmm...an interesting proposition. What should I call this new and improved organization?



Call it whatever you like, but it will be the disc golf version of the USFL. There may be issues you don't like about the PDGA and the way it is run. Nothing is perfect. However, as far as I am concerned, for my $50 a year, I get a lot of value. I get a rating that helps me assess my progress, and I get DGW magazine. That would be enough as far as I am concerned, but there are plenty of other little things that go with it.

And before you jump to any conclusions, I am in no way a shill for the PDGA. I'm just a lowly REC-to-INT amateur who is happy to be associated with disc golf.

So Doc, if I started another national organization with low dues like $20 a year, would you join just to support the greater good?

It depends on what that $20 would get for me. Probably a sticker and a bag tag would be enough to say yes.

and the uses of his Walbulance :o:D

Mr. Chapman,

Guess what? I sent in a request to Mr. Decker just as you said. Haven't heard a peep from him as yet, but, I did get an e-mail from another BOD member saying--and I'm paraphrasing the following--that they had reviewed my request to see the reports and that I'm not entitled to see them.

So, what are they covering up this time? Don't you think this is getting beyond silly?



Mr. Kernan,

I have no idea why they denied your request. It seems to me that any member should access to a basic financial report. What reason did they give for denying your request, and what other BoD member wrote you on this?

Chap

"Guess what? I sent in a request to Mr. Decker just as you said. Haven't heard a peep from him as yet, but, I did get an e-mail from another BOD member saying--and I'm paraphrasing the following--that they had reviewed my request to see the reports and that I'm not entitled to see them." -Kernan



Why are you paraphrasing? What secret are you keeping?
Cut and paste and show your source.

Oh, and justifying the dues increase based on how much it would cost if there were no volunteers is flawed logic. Unless they are not volunteering anymore.

Oh no, no, no, I will not stoop to posting private emails.

Chap, 'tis quitting time for today, but I'll see if I didn't delete those e-mails and forward them to you tomorrow...although I kinda remember them saying something about discussing what I am allowed to see at the next meeting. Actually one said they'd love to post what he had, but wasn't sure if he could under the new by-laws. I think any lawyer could tell him that the new by-laws definitely don't prevent anyone with the financial statements from reporting them...

For one reason, cutting and pasting of private emails is not proper ettiquette for the message board and could result in suspension of posting privileges. :cool:

The PDGA sells a bundled service. A large component of that bundled service is the result of volunteer actions. Why should the PDGA not be able to sell the results of it's largely volunteer work force ?

C.R.S.A. � 7-136-106
-West's Colorado Revised Statutes Annotated Currentness
--Title 7. Corporations and Associations (Refs & Annos)
---Corporations--(Continued)
----Nonprofit Corporations
-----Article 136. Records, Information, and Reports (Refs & Annos)

� 7-136-106. Financial statements

Upon the written request of any member, a nonprofit corporation shall mail to such member its most recent annual financial statements, if any, and its most recently published financial statements, if any, showing in reasonable detail its assets and liabilities and results of its operations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bold part is the law. The non-bold part is the Westlaw indexing. There is another, fuzzier, law for records generally, but the law for financial reports is clear enough.

If that's the case, it looks like the financial statement on page 63 of the Spring DGWN meets the legal criteria.

Isn't the annual financial statement (if any) the one printed in DGW ?

"The PDGA sells a bundled service. A large component of that bundled service is the result of volunteer actions. Why should the PDGA not be able to sell the results of it's largely volunteer work force ?" -gnduke

Sure they can sell it, but it's a lot like raising the entry fees to an event to increase the purse. Sure it's a bigger payout for the top third or so. But it doesn't make the event better per se.
Now if the money was targeted for something we could get behind and support...

Remember the PDGA is us. No reason to hide from ourselves.

and the lawyers can debate "reasonable" forever.

That information is published in the magazine. That article states "showing in reasonable detail its assets and liabilities and results of its operations". You aren't going to get a 10-K.

"The PDGA sells a bundled service. A large component of that bundled service is the result of volunteer actions. Why should the PDGA not be able to sell the results of it's largely volunteer work force ?" -gnduke

Sure they can sell it, but it's a lot like raising the entry fees to an event to increase the purse. Sure it's a bigger payout for the top third or so. But it doesn't make the event better per se.
Now if the money was targeted for something we could get behind and support...

Remember the PDGA is us. No reason to hide from ourselves.



That's the point I guess. I believe that the PDGA is the organization that will take the sport to the next level (where people don't assume you mean stick golf when you say disc golf). That's something I can get behind and support. And though I don't agree with every step they take, I feel like I have some say in what's going on in the long run.

For one reason, cutting and pasting of private emails is not proper ettiquette for the message board and could result in suspension of posting privileges. :cool:




Actually, that's not true Gary. While a breach of internet etiquette, or 'netiquette,' the cutting and pasting of PMs is not a violation of PDGA Message Board Rules as we currently have them. Unless we are directed otherwise to change the Rules, for the time being, message board users should always assume that any PMs they send are not confidential.

C.R.S.A. � 7-136-106
-West's Colorado Revised Statutes Annotated Currentness
--Title 7. Corporations and Associations (Refs & Annos)
---Corporations--(Continued)
----Nonprofit Corporations
-----Article 136. Records, Information, and Reports (Refs & Annos)

� 7-136-106. Financial statements

Upon the written request of any member, a nonprofit corporation shall mail to such member its most recent annual financial statements, if any, and its most recently published financial statements, if any, showing in reasonable detail its assets and liabilities and results of its operations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bold part is the law. The non-bold part is the Westlaw indexing. There is another, fuzzier, law for records generally, but the law for financial reports is clear enough.




Well, that's not very promising. I guess it's back to plan B, make a mockery of everything since I have to be a member of this overpriced shamorginization.

HEY CHUCK GIMME A CUT OF THAT PDGA LOOT AND I'LL SHUT UP!

I think the whole issue of wanting these detailed records is a little over-the-top. You couldn't go buy a single share of any company's stock and then storm through the front door demanding to be told all of the proprietary company secrets.

I think the whole issue of wanting these detailed records is a little over-the-top. You couldn't go buy a single share of any company's stock and then storm through the front door demanding to be told all of the proprietary company secrets.

Actually, if you own a single share of a company's stock you are entitled to see the financial report and quite a bit of other information. Usually you are entitled to be heard at the annual meeting too. Ralph Nader became famous for exercising these shareholder rights.

Doc, I must agree with you there. However, people with nothing to hide would share the information.

Hand this guy a tissue :o:D

I think the whole issue of wanting these detailed records is a little over-the-top. You couldn't go buy a single share of any company's stock and then storm through the front door demanding to be told all of the proprietary company secrets.

Actually, if you own a single share of a company's stock you are entitled to see the financial report and quite a bit of other information. Usually you are entitled to be heard at the annual meeting too. Ralph Nader became famous for exercising these shareholder rights.



Poor analogy maybe. Actually, in this case, it's more like buying Windows XP and asking Microsoft to show you the source code.

He is not asking for trade secrets, just detailed accounting information. Horrible analogy Doc, if you buy stock in a company you get a detailed annual report. We as members can't get a detailed report.

I have no problem with the PDGA paying consulting fees to Chuck, Stork and others. But why does everything have to be done in secret? Why not just be open about it especially when it comes out anyway. It looks as if something is being hidden. Maybe I am too trusting, but I don't think the PDGA has anything to cover up. I don't like the attitude that the general membership is too **** stupid to understand such information without being confused.

Mikey is going to continually bed wet conspiracy all over the board like he has for years whether he sees the financials or not. If you go dig on the Southern Nationals board you can find where he was crying foul about money relating to the SN Am championship last year. Every few months it will be something new.

Why be secretive when you have no reason to be secretive?

Why be secretive when you have no reason to be secretive?



On the other hand, why waste your time giving information that is already available in DG World magazine to someone who is going to twist whatever he gets to support some goofy theory?

Mr. Bull,
Did you happen to notice how the Southern Nationals has cleaned up its act since the 2005 SNAC debacle? The SN has implemented new championship payout standards, and the 2006 SNC's went off without a PEEP from the SN crowd about how the SN cash was spent. Imagine that, a disc golf organization that isn't afraid to publish how it spends its cash. Is there something wrong with speaking up?

Sure, I'm outrageous, I'm over the top, a buffoon, and my user name is so long that it ruins people's lives apparently, but, in my mind, it's darn good entertainment---I mean, how can anyone be serious about the PDGA when the membership is so lazy they'll elect the same clowns over and over and even vote to destroy the checks and balances that Ed Headrick put in the old PDGA Constitution?

Look, I'll make the PDGA a deal... if you pay me just a modest fraction of the PDGA budget, I'll quit posting. That's really what this is all about. If you whine like Chuck does for years and years about how you're not getting paid enough by the PDGA, they eventually give in and just start splurging like they have to spend the money by next week. That's how Dave went to Japan---hey does Dave even speak Japanese? I'm sure he was really really effective in convincing the tens of fans that showed up for that event how wonderful PDGA membership is. We must have added at least 3 new members for the thousands we spent to have Dave play in Japan.

Look, I'll make the PDGA a deal... if you pay me just a modest fraction of the PDGA budget, I'll quit posting.



Perhaps returning your $75 renewal would be a nice modest fraction...

isnt the easiest way to get Mikey to settle down and be content is just give him what he wants.....whas the big deal?

and Mikey does have a point.

when i became webmaster i was given a $5000 per year "stipend".

i was also told to NEVER tell ANYONE thati was getting money for it. that just did not feel right. i ended up not taking a penny , and quitting the assignment a month later because everything i did was micromanaged.

i felt troubled by the DEMAND for secrecy, and am not surprised that some of the more astute Members pick up on the same vibe.

regardless of what the LAW says is a minimum requirement, there is nothing wrong with disclosing the real numbers at a detailed level.

i suspect that most of the people pushing for transparency would be willing to agree that details of staff salaries be combined into a single line item for salaries. its not the salaries that are causing the concern. its the high value the organization places on secrecy.

no one is even saying they want to micromanage the finances. they just want to know what the heck is going on.

i have yet to hear a coherent argument for not providing these numbers.

We should be grateful to have someone like Mikey around. He is outrageous, over the top and even wrong sometimes. I actually officially complained about him once when he was using my sir name in an unjust manner. However, it's nice to have someone around stirring up the pot...it's even nicer when it isn't my brother. I'd still like to know just how long Mikey can make his user name. :D

Look, I'll make the PDGA a deal... if you pay me just a modest fraction of the PDGA budget, I'll quit posting.



Perhaps returning your $75 renewal would be a nice modest fraction...



I can be bought, but not that cheap. I'll settle for a plane ticket to the European Open with 4 nights in a 4-star hotel with free meals and paid escorts. Just call me a consultant like Underpaid Chuck.

sandalman is right...whats the deal?

We should be grateful to have someone like Mikey around. He is outrageous, over the top and even wrong sometimes. I actually officially complained about him once when he was using my sir name in an unjust manner. However, it's nice to have someone around stirring up the pot...it's even nicer when it isn't my brother. I'd still like to know just how long Mikey can make his user name. :D

Yeah, Mikey is quite the mixed bag. I put him on ignore; I take him off. I wish there was a way to ignore his bug eyed avatar and shorten any excessively long user name to just 12 digits. But it's nice to be like Bob Avellini handing the ball off to the Walter Payton of outrageous posts. He makes me look good, which isn't happening on the passing plays.

I was told to never reveal anything of the Board's teleconference deliberations on the message board and I went along with it for a while. But then when they double crossed me on the 2 meter rule and merrily looked the other way while the Rules Committee tried to run amok with unapproved rules changes, I lost any interest in playing their games. Any promise I make is predicated on your implicit promise that when I turn around you aren't going to shove a broom handle up my [#$*&$!]. I did not get that courtesy from the Board when I was serving.

Hey what am I doing here? I thought the marsupial marshals (one L) would have flipped off my switch by now.

I'm familiar with the PDGA brand of secrecy. Here's mine: Theo called me the night before the this little B-Tier, the 2004 MSDGC. The PDGA had sent us a certified letter to give to Cam AFTER the tournament, and Theo refused to divulge its contents. (They were banning him for telling a PDGA tournament TD his tournament was bad.) When I called "Headquarters" to complain I got hung up on.

The result of that little incident? Cam Todd, a Pro World Champion, got so mad he quit the game following his forced apology and his second place finish at the USDGC that year. The PDGA made him give his winnings to charity.

As for the MSDGC? NOT a PDGA sancitoned tournament at all now, and it never will be until we get some people steering the boat who aren't afraid to tell us what our course is.

The PDGA insider club right now isn't interested in promoting the sport. They're interested in consolidating their power base and in keeping the membership in the dark as to how much money they waste.

The PDGA insider club right now isn't interested in promoting the sport. They're interested in consolidating their power base and in keeping the membership in the dark as to how much money they waste.



Considering the ongoing staff and Board turnover from past August thru next August involving at least 8 of 11, this claim is pretty ridiculous. Doesn't look like anyone leaving is consolidating power nor worried about secrets being uncovered by the new people.

well, before they leave how about some info...I was also under the impression that BoD members got paid trips to Worlds and other events...Why...

...
I wish there was a way to ignore his bug eyed avatar and shorten any excessively long user name to just 12 digits.
...



...says the man with 12 characters in his user name. I'm sure it's just a coincidence. :p

Have we yet determined what the PDGA membership is entitled to see as far as fiancial breakdowns are concerned?

Is it more than what's published in DGWN?

If so, please, please, pretty please..for the sake of the MB, give the Mikeys and Jasons of the PDGA what they've been asking for..

"Go ahead, give them their tartar sauce."

The membership would be more inclined to vote for changes or even *gasp* step up and run, if they knew what the BoD is doing now..

I'm sure the BoD is not as abusive of our money as the theorists claim, but without full disclosure all they can do is theorize..

I was told to never reveal anything of the Board's teleconference deliberations on the message board and I went along with it for a while. But then when they double crossed me on the 2 meter rule and merrily looked the other way while the Rules Committee tried to run amok with unapproved rules changes, I lost any interest in playing their games.



Seems to me the BoD held up rules changes for a year because of HFO (it'll happen when Hell Freezes Over) scenarios supplied by a former BoD member to gum up the process. If anything, the BoD didn't look the other way. One particular former BoD member may not have gotten his way, however, although he did succeed in holding up the process for an entire year.

The RC has never had any power to enact rules changes on thier own...the vote has always been with the BoD, and the RC will be the first ones to tell you that. The RC does interpret rules situations that our brought to our attention, and the widely relevant ones are posted as Rules Q&As. Bruce, I'm not sure how you were "double crossed" on the 2 meter rule, but the current rule is the best of both worlds in a membership that was clearly split 50-50 on that issue.

For the record, I was never told by anyone to keep BoD teleconference issues off the message board, but then again, I'm not a high frequenter of the MB, so maybe no one ever felt the need.

Chap

"Go ahead, give them their tartar sauce."

..



Priceless....... I always assumed that I would see more simpsons references on the MB. Funny stuff!

Board members, Committee heads and members invited to present proposals, such as those bidding for majors, get expenses reimbursed for trips to Board and Summit meetings if they submit claims for reimbursement. Several don't.

The Pro Worlds had been one of the few face-to-face Board meetings that's also easy for members to attend right after the banquet. But very few stayed to watch or comment. If Board members play in the event, I'm sure they pay the entry fee and pretty sure they cover their own expenses on the days before and after the official Board meeting. I can personally confirm that for PW2005 in Allentown since Board member Pete May and I roomed together and paid for our hotel, food and transportation the whole week.

With two face-to-face Summit meetings now, I'm not certain, but it's possible the official Pro Worlds Board meeting may have been scrapped and replaced with an informal member Q&A of those Board members and staff in attendance following the banquet. With more future Summit meetings at our permanent HQ in Georgia, travel and lodging costs for these meetings will be further reduced.

Can someone post the most recent financial info that was included in DGWN? I can't recall how limited the info was.

Board members, Committee heads and members invited to present proposals, such as those bidding for majors, get expenses reimbursed for trips to Board and Summit meetings if they submit claims for reimbursement. Several don't.

The Pro Worlds had been one of the few face-to-face Board meetings that's also easy for members to attend right after the banquet. But very few stayed to watch or comment. If Board members play in the event, I'm sure they pay the entry fee and pretty sure they cover their own expenses on the days before and after the official Board meeting. I can personally confirm that for PW2005 in Allentown since Board member Pete May and I roomed together and paid for our hotel, food and transportation the whole week.

With two face-to-face Summit meetings now, I'm not certain, but it's possible the official Pro Worlds Board meeting may have been scrapped and replaced with an informal member Q&A of those Board members and staff in attendance following the banquet. With more future Summit meetings at our permanent HQ in Georgia, travel and lodging costs for these meetings will be further reduced.



There used to be a big forum called "Meet the Board" at the Worlds...colloquially known as the "Bash the Board" sessions. These were held at Am Worlds as well, although there typically fewer BoD member at Am Worlds due to the playing status of the BoD members at that time. These sessions were very well attended in the past. I believe at the Michigan Worlds in 2000, the "Bash the Board" session was canceled, mainly due to a power outage at Hudson Mills in the big tent due to massive thunderstorms in the area. I don't know that there was another BoD session scheduled at Worlds again until 2005. We had 3 or 4 people attend the one in Flagstaff (other than BoD members, PDGA staff, or marshals), and about the same number at Tulsa this year. I don't know if apathy has taken over, if they weren't publicized enough, or if we've just lost the momentum we had from the old days when we had them every year.

Chap

There used to be a big forum called "Meet the Board" at the Worlds...colloquially known as the "Bash the Board" sessions.



It would seem to me that a "Ask the BoD" thread here would be real similar - and better since there would be permanent record for those not physically able to attend the sessions you speak of.

If there was straightforward and gracious answers, my opinion is that bashers would look very petty in the eyes of readers with even a smidgeon of maturity.

Mikey Kernan got banned from this board again. He asked me to post somewhere that he'll return all his PMs once he's reinstated or if it's important to e-mail him at: [email protected]

What am I doing here? I heard I got banned, too. Hey how come Mikey got banned and I didn't! Is this some sort of reverse discrimination? At any rate, I am outraged...I guess.

Maybe it's one of those beaurocratic things like fixing this monstrosity of a website: It doesn't take all that long but it's time-consuming getting all the right secret people to agree behind closed doors before the rest of the meeting attendees show up.

If he's banned, can a moderator please shorten his username?

With all due respect to the quoted individuals, I'd like to make a few comments about the secrecy claims:

Sandalman posted:


when i became webmaster i was given a $5000 per year "stipend".

i was also told to NEVER tell ANYONE thati was getting money for it. that just did not feel right. i ended up not taking a penny , and quitting the assignment a month later because everything i did was micromanaged.

i felt troubled by the DEMAND for secrecy, and am not surprised that some of the more astute Members pick up on the same vibe.



Most astute members realize that it is standard operating procedure in most work environments that employees not discuss their salaries. At every job I have had since leaving college, I have been instructed by my employer to not discuss my salary. Were they trying to hide something from me or were they merely trying to maintain an efficient work environment free of petty jealousies that sometimes arise between employees over salary differences?

Was $5,000 out of line for the type and amount of work that you were contracted for Pat? How much would they have had to pay a professional from outside of our sport to do the same work? I'd bet that the PDGA was getting one heck of a deal.


Bruce Brakel posted:


I was told to never reveal anything of the Board's teleconference deliberations on the message board and I went along with it for a while. But then when they double crossed me on the 2 meter rule and merrily looked the other way while the Rules Committee tried to run amok with unapproved rules changes, I lost any interest in playing their games.



It is standard operating procedure on both non-profit boards that I sit on that details of the Board meetings not be discussed outside of the meetings, due primarily to legal reasons. There are many other resons and most of them have been discussed eariler on this thread.

Do you mean to tell me Bruce that the PDGA Board had the audacity to let the rules committees do their job? Would you prefer that the Board micromanage the rules committee as Pat claimed was being done to him? As a Board member, it is your job to build a consensus among your fellow board members to not approve the changes if you are opposed to them. It is impossible for a single board member on any board to make changes without cooperation from the other members. This however requires mutual respect and working together, otherwise the majority can just ignore a rogue member, who chooses to to take a combative or disrespectful approach.


Jason Southwick posted:


I'm familiar with the PDGA brand of secrecy. Here's mine: Theo called me the night before the this little B-Tier, the 2004 MSDGC. The PDGA had sent us a certified letter to give to Cam AFTER the tournament, and Theo refused to divulge its contents. (They were banning him for telling a PDGA tournament TD his tournament was bad.) When I called "Headquarters" to complain I got hung up on.

The result of that little incident? Cam Todd, a Pro World Champion, got so mad he quit the game following his forced apology and his second place finish at the USDGC that year. The PDGA made him give his winnings to charity.



Sounds pretty devious when you put it that way Jason but could it be that....
Because Cam was a touring pro who lived on the road, the only way to deliver mail to him was at the events he attended. As the TD, you are the most obvious person to deliver a letter to a player. I've delivered letters and packages to many touring players at my events over the years. Is it my business to know what the contents of a personal letter is? In my opinion, no!

As for getting hung up on, nobody but you and the person you were speaking with could know the reason but based upon your past conduct and personal attacks on this message board, one could summize.

As for Cam, nobody forced him to do anything. If you know Cam well, you would know that he is not the type of person that could be forced into doing anything he did not want to do. He came to an agreement with the PDGA that would allow him to compete in the USDGC. As the official TD of the USDGC that year, I personally presented the agreement to Cam and witnessed him sign it. As for his actions in warranting the penalty, I cannot comment because I did not witness the incident and neither did you. It should be noted however that it was one of his fellow Discraft team members who reported the incident to the disciplinary committee.

I guess my point in all of this is that if you think the worst and only look for the worst, than you will only see the negatives. My personal experiences in working with the PDGA office and board have all been very positive. Is the PDGA perfect? Is anything perfect? No, but I choose to be respectful and work within the current system to make changes where I see they are needed. It's really quite simple and effective.

Regards,
Brian Graham

Brian G, as for Cam's agreement, didn't he have to sign it in order to play at the USDGC? More like holding a gun to his head rather than reaching an agreement. Beyond that, the discipline committee or whoever was in charge of that fiasco made up the penalty out of thin air. There were no written penalties like that at all. They just made it up.

As for Theo's request, at one point in the conversation I saw Cam finishing up Hole 18 and told Theo, "He's right here. You can talk to him right now."

Theo declined. At the time I still respected the PDGA, and am one of the first to run PDGA events in New England. I figured Theo must have a good reason for this approach. I would soon change my mind, and now consider the PDGA's approach to the Cam issue as both bullying and spineless -- basically their current approach to discipline.

I do like how they just posted the discussion page discipline rules of suspension and already they're breaking them. Goes to show what an organization that ignored its own constitution for years is capable of when its power remains unchecked and unquestioned.

So long, UPM (or LJGATMTUC). You will be missed (for now . . .)

with all due respect Brian, i was not a salary, it was an expense. there is a difference. had i never been told not to reveal it i probably never would have revealed it. but the act of instructing me to be silent made me wonder what the heck was going on. made me wonder if i was doing something wrong by accepting the money. see what i mean? we probably do not have a serious difference of opinion on this one.

Didn't Cam's "choice of donating his money to the Leukemia society" only occur because people voiced their concern for him on this message board, and his being treated unfairly? I think there was a far worse consequence initially determined by the then BoD (or Theo), that outraged many golfers at that time. I'm sure there can be a thread dug up that details those actions.

I think Mark Ellis, his disc golf lawyer, may have had a part in the "creative" solution of Cam donating any USDGC winnings to the charity related to the event where his infraction occurred.

True dat, but wasn't there a pretty horrible decision/proposition first made by Theo or the BoD?

Brian G, as for Cam's agreement, didn't he have to sign it in order to play at the USDGC? More like holding a gun to his head rather than reaching an agreement.


Jason,

If I am not mistaken, and I could be, Cam's original punishment was to be suspension from the tour. It seems to me that the BOD went above and beyond being fair by offering him the conditional chance to remain on tour and compete in our sports top event. One could argue that the BOD went too far by making this offer and that Cam should have been suspended. For the record, Cam is a long time disc golfing buddy of mine here in Georgia and we chatted about the situation as he signed the agreement. And for the record, I wasn't holding a gun.




with all due respect Brian, i was not a salary, it was an expense. there is a difference. had i never been told not to reveal it i probably never would have revealed it. but the act of instructing me to be silent made me wonder what the heck was going on. made me wonder if i was doing something wrong by accepting the money. see what i mean? we probably do not have a serious difference of opinion on this one.


Pat,
You are right in that we do not have a serious difference in opinion. From the PDGA's perspective it was an expense and I don't think that even you will debate that it was a justifiable expense. You were being paid a salary by the PDGA to perform a service for the organization. I see nothing sinister in a PDGA officer asking you not to discuss it with anyone. As I said, that is pretty much standard operating procedure with most companies and organizations. You saw it differently and that is certainly your perogative. I just wanted the readers of this forum to know that it is common practice for an employer to request that salaries and compensation be kept confidential.

Regards,
Brian Graham

I do like how they just posted the discussion page discipline rules of suspension and already they're breaking them.



The discussion page discipline rules of suspension are being followed 100%. With regards to Mike Kernan, the moderation team received several member complaints last week about postings and his display name. We reviewed the complaints and agreed that one of them violated PDGA Discussion Rules - many others were left alone. The offensive material was deleted and notice of probation was sent to Mike Kernan. He appealed to Communications Director Steve Dodge who upheld the appeal.

That was last week, and there were many postings over the weekend and this week by Mike Kernan. Not until we received user complaints yesterday did we again investigate his postings, one of which we agreed was offensive. Per PDGA Discussion Board Rules, Mike was suspended for 24 hours. His suspension will end at 6:10pm on 12/7/2006, and he will remain on probation until 3/7/07. If there is another complaint and material found to be offensive, he will be subject to a 3 month suspension.

As much as I think the moderation of the rules has improved, there still are obvious problems. I for one have STILL not heard an answer on the claim I filed. I was told by Steve that I would hear an answer within a week. Nothing. I PMed him, he said Jeff or Alan would PM soon to let me know the answer. Nothing.

Jeff emails me to let me know of another complaint I filed. I emailed him back to ask him about the original complaint. Nothing.

That is not good folks. A simple "your claim has no merritt and you suck as a person" would be a better response than the silent treament I have recieved.

Robert,

We have addressed your claim multiple times, unless you have not received the e-mails we've sent you. You should have received from both Alan and I e-mails that contained the following information:
<ul type="square"> While a breach of internet 'netiquette,' forwarding a PM is not a PDGA Discussion Board rules violation.
Neither is posting the contents of a private message.
A non-member using a member's PDGA profile to post on the message board should not be allowed, but we are unable to determine the validity of the claim or enforce such. [/list]

That is all I wanted to hear. I promise I never recieved a PM or email or anything other than the one I got from you the other day.

Thanks for addressing this.

Posting a PM is not a against the rules? I find that to be very bad....just my opinion.

While a breach of internet etiquette, or 'netiquette,' the cutting and pasting of PMs is not a violation of PDGA Message Board Rules as we currently have them. Unless we are directed otherwise to change the Rules, for the time being, message board users should always assume that any PMs they send are not confidential.

hey Brian... maybe just semantics between you and me, but the IRS may not be so generous.

"You were being paid a salary by the PDGA to perform a service for the organization"

it was not a salary. if it was it would have been subject to withholding andsocial security and all those other thingies the US Government does. in fact it was a fee for contracted services. had i taken it i would have expected to receive a 1099, not a W-2. i also would have had to complete a W-4. big difference - both to me and to the organization.

best,
pat

While a breach of internet etiquette, or 'netiquette,' the cutting and pasting of PMs is not a violation of PDGA Message Board Rules as we currently have them. Unless we are directed otherwise to change the Rules, for the time being, message board users should always assume that any PMs they send are not confidential.


PM users should also know that anyone with access to the database can read every PM ever sent on this message board. that is a necessary side-effect of enabling people to manage the technology that runs the message board. i always assume myPMs can be read.

of course it would be easy to concot a bogus PM and claim it was sent by someone. thats a valid reason for a technology volunteer to be able to retrieve PMs... it could expose a spoofer.

Someone mentioned the Cam Todd deal. Just to set the record straight for the 99.9% of the members who were never informed about what went on with that, Mark Ellis will admit that he was ineffective in acheiving an acceptable result for his client. He tried. He went far beyond what might be deemed proper in his efforts, in my opinion, but I was not offended.

Whatever you think of the Cam Todd decision, credit or blame goes to Terry Calhoun. The Board was divided about seven ways on what to do until Terry came up with the play-for-charity sanction. It was really a brilliant way to make lemonade from the ingredients set before us, I think.

Sounds like the solution was more a way for the PDGA to save face -- once it got all mad and made threats it didn't have the cojones to follow through with -- than to mete out discipline consistently and fairly.

hey Brian... maybe just semantics between you and me



Agreed!

The exact terminology I used may not have been 100% correct but I stand by my belief that the intent was not to deceive or hide anything from the membership but common practice by the majority of companies and organizations in regards to salary, compensation and bonuses.

Regards,
Brian Graham

hey Brian... maybe just semantics between you and me, but the IRS may not be so generous.

"You were being paid a salary by the PDGA to perform a service for the organization"

it was not a salary. if it was it would have been subject to withholding andsocial security and all those other thingies the US Government does. in fact it was a fee for contracted services. had i taken it i would have expected to receive a 1099, not a W-2. i also would have had to complete a W-4. big difference - both to me and to the organization.

best,
pat



Pat is technically correct, however, this is a case of ignoring the intent to serve your best desires. That is, the spirt of what Brian has written applies, Pat is finding a loophole. I work at a company where discussion of any payment, gift, fee, within the company structure is a no-no; as Brian pointed out most companies work this way. Companies do this for a reason, and it has to do with managing their employees and how they work. For example, if I have two web development guys and one is paid $50,000 a year and the other who feels is equally competent is paid $40,000 a year I have a problem.

The reason Pat was told not discuss his payment, on a guess, was that this same principal holds for the PDGA, an organization that pays some people and has others volunteer.

Pat seems to see this as wrong, as if that information should be out front for everyone to know about. Obviously, this means that your ability to incentivize and motivate volunteers vs part-time vs full time staff is going to be impeded. It is not the job of the Board to vet what they do to the Membership, it is their job to be effective. For profit, non-profit, and government organizations all operate this way. We might not like it, but it is reality and it is the best way to be cost effective.

Let me repeat, this is how all organizations work! Pat's insistence on vetting this information just means that the PDGA leadership will have to spend more to get the same jobs done. You might find that repugnant. Get over it, it happens all around you. You judge payment situations in a vaccum. "Am I being adequetely paid for my services." Not how does that relate to the guy in the next cubical.

Again, if we don't like the overall performance of the Board we have the right to remove them, by vote or by impeachment, but this micromanagement approach that Pat is proposing is foolish and will make the PDGA less effective.

While a breach of internet etiquette, or 'netiquette,' the cutting and pasting of PMs is not a violation of PDGA Message Board Rules as we currently have them. Unless we are directed otherwise to change the Rules, for the time being, message board users should always assume that any PMs they send are not confidential.



While correct, this statement does nothing to adress the issue of what it means to be able to trust someone you PM. The idea that anyone can be affective if they can't trust that someone will hold their conversations in private is ludicrous. Anyone who abuses this has hurt themselves and the organization they work for. Why this should have to be spelled out is beyond me. MTL is right for thinking this is an issue. No it's not a rule, it's an unspoken societal rule that in every working situation I've ever been in is obeyed. Oh wait, with one exception...

:confused: i thought Pat didn't find compensation necessary and preferred the money remain with the PDGA for promoting disc golf. since he hadn't asked for compensation, he may have found it weird he was being offered $ anyways, and being asked to keep it top secret.

i thought Pat declined the position because he found he was being micro-mananged at every turn (i am guessing by Theo) and not because he thought he was being offered too much compensation. one example that comes to my mind is when Pat created a sweet tool that showed our rating info underneathe our message board id's but then he was commanded to remove the tool... LOL

i am only offering conjecture based on what pat has posted here. maybe Pat will be open about it.

Anybody know where the thread is that was all about Cam's punishment leading up to USDGC 2004?

i respectfully decline to debate the psychological aspects of whatever it was that happened with me and the webmaster position. those who want to believe they can look inside my head and know my feelings will do so regardless of what i write, so i dont see much value at this point in discussing my feelings on that subject.

i will however debate the proposition that "all" companies have a policy of non disclosure. that simply is not true. i have worked in several companies where all salaries were open. thats the trouble with making generalizations from only your own experience. in fact, in some Asian cultures openly talking about salaries is not only normal, but also expected.

until Theo formally notifies me that Lyle has said that it is OK for me to communicate with him, i will try to refrain from further commenting on or replying to anything Lyle posts. this is because Lyle's request came via Theo to me in an email and it was quite clear that absolutely no communication was wanted. i am not going to put Lyle on ignore (i have no one on ignore), because i believe Lyle is a pretty smart fella and i frequently find value in his thoughts.

Go to the Players section. I bumped the thread up for you. Enjoy.

Thanks BB!

While a breach of internet etiquette, or 'netiquette,' the cutting and pasting of PMs is not a violation of PDGA Message Board Rules as we currently have them. Unless we are directed otherwise to change the Rules, for the time being, message board users should always assume that any PMs they send are not confidential.



While correct, this statement does nothing to adress the issue of what it means to be able to trust someone you PM. The idea that anyone can be affective if they can't trust that someone will hold their conversations in private is ludicrous. Anyone who abuses this has hurt themselves and the organization they work for. Why this should have to be spelled out is beyond me. MTL is right for thinking this is an issue. No it's not a rule, it's an unspoken societal rule that in every working situation I've ever been in is obeyed. Oh wait, with one exception...



So what point are you trying to make here, Lyle? This is a completely honest question, by the way -- I'm not trying to be jerky.

Sounds like the solution was more a way for the PDGA to save face -- once it got all mad and made threats it didn't have the cojones to follow through with -- than to mete out discipline consistently and fairly.

This post reflects your continuing misunderstanding as to who does what and who is the PDGA.

The PDGA did not make threats. Rather, the Commissioner imposed a lengthy suspension, properly, as allowed by our rules and Constitution then in effect. The player then exercised his right to appeal. The Board heard the appeal, as required by our Constitution, and made a decision.

In retrospect, both wings of the peanut gallery won on this one. The people who thought Theo had been too harsh saw the penalty greatly reduced. The people who thought Theo had been too soft have since seen this punishment have an effect four times greater than Theo's original punishment.

I've been a union worker for a long time.
Pay rates are always open to all members and never a secret.
From the Teamsters to the NEA.

Military jobs are the same.

Bruce, like most members, I have very little clue. But think about how absurd it is for the commissioner to pull a penalty out of his hat, back off because it's deemed to harsh, and then a small group brainstorms to figure out a compromise. What about the rule of law? You know, writing down procedures and establishing precedent. There wasn't even an appeals process in place at the time, so that had to be created as well.

I may not have the insight that you have, Bruce, but you don't need a law degree to smell something fishy in that whole episode.

While a breach of internet etiquette, or 'netiquette,' the cutting and pasting of PMs is not a violation of PDGA Message Board Rules as we currently have them. Unless we are directed otherwise to change the Rules, for the time being, message board users should always assume that any PMs they send are not confidential.



While correct, this statement does nothing to adress the issue of what it means to be able to trust someone you PM. The idea that anyone can be affective if they can't trust that someone will hold their conversations in private is ludicrous. Anyone who abuses this has hurt themselves and the organization they work for. Why this should have to be spelled out is beyond me. MTL is right for thinking this is an issue. No it's not a rule, it's an unspoken societal rule that in every working situation I've ever been in is obeyed. Oh wait, with one exception...



So what point are you trying to make here, Lyle? This is a completely honest question, by the way -- I'm not trying to be jerky.



No jerky taken. Do you disagree?

I've been a union worker for a long time.
Pay rates are always open to all members and never a secret.
From the Teamsters to the NEA.



Good point, one I hadn't thought of. Union workers are not the same as white collar workers (who for the most part aren't Union). However, not all Union shops are this way nor for that matter are all blue collar workers. I didn't say I agreed with the structure, I just pointed out that it exists and is fairly common. I may have even said it was universal, and if so I was obviously incorrect.

Nonetheless, do you disagree that many companies follow this procedure and that open discourse of salaries bonuses etc. in that environment would be bad?

Military jobs are the same.



Same issue. Now, one might argue that all salaries should be open and above board. I would argue that you would end up with the same situation you end up with in rare cases in some Unions and in some military situations, with some fairly incompetent people who are overpaid and protected by the structure. Please don't come back with a "you don't know what you're talking about." Woodworkers Union from 76 to 85, and I have a lot of family in the military.

[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]




While correct, this statement does nothing to adress the issue of what it means to be able to trust someone you PM. The idea that anyone can be affective if they can't trust that MTL is right for thinking this is an issue. No it's not a rule, it's an unspoken societal rule that in every working situation I've ever been in is obeyed. Oh wait, with one exception...



If MTL wasn't talkn junk about someone else in that PM it wouldn't have been forwarded. He should've been a man and said it to them. But those are old worms, BapSter and BOB will live on.

No jerky taken. Do you disagree?



I can't really agree or disagree because I'm not sure what point you're making. Do you think it's something that should be policed, or just a severe discourtesy and breach of etiquette?

Lyle, I would never say anyone doesn't know what they're talking about. That's pretty close to calling someone a liar.

You know how much the United States President makes. Why?
You know how much the Teacher at the local High School makes. You know how much every municipal employee makes. It's public knowledge. Why?

Because they work for you.

The PDGA works for the members. We,the players.
Makes sense to me.

Salaries should be open to all members. As should jobs in the PDGA.
There are a few of them, are there not?

Bruce, like most members, I have very little clue. But think about how absurd it is for the commissioner to pull a penalty out of his hat, back off because it's deemed to harsh, and then a small group brainstorms to figure out a compromise. What about the rule of law? You know, writing down procedures and establishing precedent. There wasn't even an appeals process in place at the time, so that had to be created as well.

I may not have the insight that you have, Bruce, but you don't need a law degree to smell something fishy in that whole episode.

I was was neck deep in that swamp and smelled no fish whatsoever. Theo never backed down on his punishment. He was #$*&$! that the rest of the board overruled his decision. The Constitution gave us that power and we exercised it.

Snakes were always everywhere, but I never saw or smelled a fish in that deal. The board really spent a long time trying to do that whole disciplinary process by the skeleton of a procedure that we had in the rules and constitution. We made good faith efforts to hear from any witnesses who wanted to be heard; we heard from Cam Todd and his lawyer and from the BHMO TD. All of the e-mail we received we forwarded to the office so it could be compiled and redistributed to all the board members. There were about a dozen people who were heard that way.

We did have to make up an appeal procedure. I'm sitting here at work and my court rules are open to page 571 and that is like 2/3rds of the way through the book. It is not like the PDGA is going to have an 800 page book of procedures and rules of evidence for disciplinary hearings.

The board did at least three things when I was on the board in a manner that demonstrated that some of them were either not fully engaged in the important business of the board or not at all ethical, but this was not one of them.

Back to work for me. I'm trying to get three weeks of work done in three days so I can take a long vacation.

I just wanted the readers of this forum to know that it is common practice for an employer to request that salaries and compensation be kept confidential.

Regards,
Brian Graham



While I'm sure this has been your experience, I have never, in my 46 years of life, been asked to do this by any employer. I have no doubt that for many employers this is standard operating procedure, but I am also sure that it is not as universal as you purport.

If MTL wasn't talkn junk about someone else in that PM it wouldn't have been forwarded. He should've been a man and said it to them. But those are old worms, BapSter and BOB will live on.



I'm sorry that you Brent have a problem with my words.

Wait.

You aren't Brent. That's right. You're Brad Smith, who isn't current, using someone elses PDGA number and password. Sorry about that.

Are you 100% sure about that?

Are you 100% sure about that?



Unless you have recently re-joined the PDGA, then yes.

I'm not getting into this with you again. Please continue breaking the rules and further likening the chances this great asset of communication between REAL PDGA members across the world no longer exists.

I'm pretty sure that Brad doesn't have the power to bring down this great asset. But with the new pricing the whole Hickraw club might use my password (however I don't encourage or endorse) Plus he pays me to use it.

Plus he pays me to use it.



Got you.

A non-member using a member's PDGA profile to post on the message board should not be allowed, but we are unable to determine the validity of the claim or enforce such. [/LIST]



Please see post above where this member admits to SELLING his password for others to use.

you got him (http://specialed.about.com/od/handlingallbehaviortypes/a/tattle.htm)

"The child who tattletales is usually seeking attention, this child needs to know the difference between appropriate 'telling on somebody' and when it isn't appropriate to tell. Tattletales do so as it gives them a sense of power. "

"Usually a tattletale has a self-esteem issue, when they tattle, somebody listens and they are gaining the attention they seek which often makes them feel important."

im not saying... im just saying

Oh God you got me. <font color="blue"> [Edited. Inappropriate.] </font>

Second

I know of several players that allow non-member spouses to post. Should those be chased down too ?

just send the names to Robert, he'll set a cunning trap and narc them out proper

He likes to pick and choose who to rat out just like when someone's breaking the rules. He better tell Joy to stop posting under Wit.

Why would be a tattle? I thought no one was breaking any rules?

Oh wait. That is why you calling me a tattle. B/c somoene broke the rules.

You all are just drowning in your hypocrisy and it is just comical at this point.

I've made my point. I'm done with this thread.

Free Brent Peterskin!!!!!!

When are the shirts going to be ready?

That would be nice on the back

PP-Ju finally get that email

re-send the email, with the attachment this time.

Whatever, I sent it three x's just imagine it then.

Why would be a tattle? I thought no one was breaking any rules?

Oh wait. That is why you calling me a tattle. B/c somoene broke the rules.

You all are just drowning in your hypocrisy and it is just comical at this point.

I've made my point. I'm done with this thread.

yeah, the point is you only sniTTch when it satisfies your agenda. what is comical is the dramatic irony dripping from your post.

Hypocrisy is a deliberate pretense used to convey sentiments or ideas that are false (acting as if one likes something or someone or agrees with a belief or political position when in fact they do not).

hypocritical - behavior or speech that is intended to make one look better or more pious than one really is.

those two defs describe someone to a T, and it sure aint a TTrim lover

Forget it, I just saw the big JC's avatar.

I also donate $20 towards the hooker fund.

yeah, the point is you only sniTTch when it satisfies your agenda. what is comical is the dramatic irony dripping from your post.




My agenda is to improve this sport in any way I can. I play for fun and I help events so other can enjoy the sport like I do.

. what is comical is the dramatic irony dripping from your post.



[/QUOTE]
Wow Juffery that wasn't half bad. Especially from TTrim maybe that's why I'm a TTrim Lover

My agenda is to improve this sport in any way I can. I play for fun and I help events so other can enjoy the sport like I do.


hypocritical - behavior or speech that is intended to make one look better or more pious than one really is.

BLAMO

TThanks

My agenda is to improve this sport in any way I can. I play for fun and I help events so other can enjoy the sport like I do.


hypocritical - behavior or speech that is intended to make one look better or more pious than one really is.

BLAMO

TThanks



Please explain...

Yes I know you are going to say I use to yell and get angry, etc. but I have totally changed in the last few months and have not had a single outburst. People are coming up to me left and right and telling me how much of a change they have seen.

Now I know you have no argument for my work efforts in disc golf...b/c no one can argue that.

And I don't. Check out Gaston's site and THC site (Ashe County) I just generated money for them and I don't even live there. I'm glad I can laugh at people like you who think they do so much for the game and need everyone to know about it. Get REAL

Why does MTL get away with bashing TD's, but Cam has to donate $4000? Who have you been kissing?

When I sent a PM to you BRAD SMITH I thought you were someone else.

I never questioned what you (BRAD SMITH) have done for disc golf.

Most of this crap is your fault since you are using someone elses identity (which is felony) to fool me into making false claims about you.

Why are you making FALSE claims about him anyway?

Why does MTL get away with bashing TD's



I only point out flaws when tournaments are not run properly. If you would like you can go see every single thread this year (Except for one) where I did nothing but praise everyone invovled.

Whay are you making FALSE claims about him anyway?



What I said to BRAD SMITH in PM was when I did not BRAD SMITH was usiung Bapster as a login posing as someone else. This whole thing should have been avoided had BRAD SMITH and BRENT PETERSON followed the rules of the discussion board.

I think a four month suspension and one year of probation is in order. I would request a "donation to a charitable organization" as well, but I would prefer you just get a date and go out into the real world for a night.

Speaking as Brent
I have done more for the Hickory Disc Golf Club then anyone except maybe BRAD. I paid for all the benchs, tee signs, stairway on 18, and trash cans. I have donate supplies, time, and money to the club. I have also run the Ice Bowl for the past four years. I have helped with the Ashe County course with donations and tee signs. So before you call someone out get your Fn facts straight. Oh wait, I also got you a free room for the Hickory Classic one year. What a %^$##

How can someone be so ignorant to not know it was Brad when he would sign BS. It seems that you were the only one.

My comments on recent tournaments....

Charleston � �Charleston was the heat, like always.

It's not often that I will ride 4 hours to a tournament being sick as crap and knowing I'm gonna play in rain, and that is exactly what I did this weekend - just an awesome experience.

I gotta give a BIG thanks to Jonas and his crew. Trophy Lakes in the past was one of my least favorite courses to play and now with the changes it is awesome!! It is actually a course I really enjoyed playing. I went out there Saturday night to see the changes and I was really looking forward to play it Sunday morning. Thanks for your commitment to improving disc golf in your area!

Congrats to Schweb. Maybe I should just copy and paste that and get it ready for next weekend.�

Fall Disc Golf Classic � �Thanks again to everyone involved in another awesome Knapp event!�

Hawk Hollow � �thanks to biscoe and everyone for another awesome event at an awesome course!�

DEP Cup � �Thanks to Scotty and all my fellow DEP Cup members for an outstanding tournament this weekend. For the amount of stuff from CTPs to baskets moving to changing tees to temp holes and everything....everything was smooth. Pretty amazing for all that to happen.

Congrats to Schweb on adding another W for an already awesome year. I'd also like to thank total randomness that alllowed me to get in ur card the first round watch you shooting a 17 with only like 1 putt for 2 outside the circle - just sick stuff bro.

Congrats to Millsie for the breakthrough win. Look out NC!

Congrats to Kirk for not DQing anyone in his group and thanks for driving like usual and for giving me my hardest laugh in quite some time.

Thanks to Max and PJ for putting me up and I'm sorry I punched bogey.

Can't wait till the DEP Cup 07. Is it in Hawaii?�

Charlotte Open � �Thanks to Stan Dave Trip Sam and the rest of the Charlotte Crew for another great trip to Charlotte!

Congrats to the Cali guys for taking 3 outta the top 4. Let me reitterate - PEOPLE DO NOT DO THAT.

Thanks to Craig and Lisa for their hospitality once again and the awesome meal Saturday night.

Congrats to Berman for getting that bug of your shoulder. You're game has stepped up to a new level and it's awesome to see.�

Man, I'm so bashing TD's.

How can someone be so ignorant to not know it was Brad when he would sign BS. It seems that you were the only one.



I was the only one that didn't know what?

Who asked for this, or did you just want to tug (not toot) on your horn?

Who asked for this, or did you just want to tug (not toot) on your horn?



I was just showing how comical I think it is when people say I bash TD's and never say anything good about tournaments. It's just really hillarious.

Just so you know one of us renewed, so we have another year of this. Later

Charleston � �Charleston was the heat, like always.

.


But does sound like a TTrim Lover

I was just showing how comical I think it is when people say I bash TD's and never say anything good about tournaments. It's just really hillarious.

when you make up arguments its pretty hilarious also. when did anyone say you never say anything good about tournaments? you bashed mansfield, brent, and whoever ran yadkinville last year and then brought it up again this year for no reason.

Thanks for the name drop

We love JU Brent!!!!

Free Brent Peterskin!!!!!

I never died. I was just getn the cops off me from that murder. Johny Wadd will live on. So Tizzy doesn't scare me.

I was just showing how comical I think it is when people say I bash TD's and never say anything good about tournaments. It's just really hillarious.

when you make up arguments its pretty hilarious also. when did anyone say you never say anything good about tournaments? you bashed mansfield, brent, and whoever ran yadkinville last year and then brought it up again this year for no reason.



My comments regarding Dave Mansfied and Todd Gillihan were mainly derived from what everyone was saying. Whether you feel the timing of those was bad is your opinion.

My comments regarding Brent were made out of anger through Private Message. When Brad, posing as Brent, saw them, he felt that I knew that he was using a false login, which I did not.

It was not till Brad replied letting me know it was in fact Brad and that Brent was also the person who helped me at a tournament in Hickory that I finally remembered who he was. Brent doesn't play too many tournaments and I was not aware of who he was or how he done such a generous act towards me. For that and too Brent, I deeply apologize. My comments were made out of total anger and are not true.

However, the point of all of this is simple. If Brad how not conned the entire Message Board into believing he was someone else and breaking the rules of the board, none of this would have happened. For those of you who knew the poster knownas BapSter was infact Brad Smith while others did not makes the situation even worse.

However, the point of all of this is simple. If Brad how not conned the entire Message Board into believing he was someone else and breaking the rules of the board, none of this would have happened. For those of you who knew the poster knownas BapSter was infact Brad Smith while others did not makes the situation even worse.

it is simple, your persona on here is hypocritical in the most definitive of terms. you showed your true colors with the quote below and your attacks on brent. i feel sorry for anyone who has believed in any part of the fascade you create on here.

I have explained myself and apologized.

I will say one thing. Brent and Brad have at least done stuff for disc golf in Hickory. Unlike.....nevermind...it's obvious.

I think you were the only one Conned. Schwebbie was calling Brad Bapster in front of you at several tournies. Scott F and Will Kuper picked up on it after one post. But I apologize for Brad conning all of Ju's.

I will say one thing.

promise?

Brent and Brad have at least done stuff for disc golf in Hickory. Unlike.....nevermind...it's obvious.

way to flip the script. i've played in hickory a couple times. as for disc golf in general i have donated my time and money for the sport. maybe i should post everytime i do something so everyone on here knows exactly what to thank me for. sound familiar?

How about somoene in California that read one of your posts? Do you think they knew who you really were?

I've made my point. I'm done with this thread.

10 posts and counting...

This truly will be it.

I have made my point. Thanks to BRAD for being oh so smart and not pciking up on me setting him up for him admitting how he has broken the message board rules. Disc Golf improved once again.

Thanks to him!

Most of this crap is your fault since you are using someone elses identity ( which is felony ) to fool me into making false claims about you.

wow, i almost didnt see this one. priceless. i hear they're selling message board IDs on the streets these days.

did you call local law enforcement and report the felony?

How does it improve by you arse push people away from the game and the PDGA who really do all the work and support others. It wasn't a trap %*&(hole because I'm just waiting for my own password. Now don't think you had anything to do with it. It's just my year to pay. We sure hope to see you in Hickraw next year. Ask PP about FXs I got a new one I'll save for ya.

No Brent's signed a consent for me to speak for him because of too much Jack. I can fax it to whoever needs it. It's legal too.

What was this thread about anyway?

Just one note on the shared-username stuff.

It was known to be a possibility when the change was made to member only posting, and discussed. The result of the discussion was that it couldn't be stopped, but the member was responsible for anything posted under his account and would be banned whether he actually posted it or not. I'll search for the thread later.

What was this thread about ?

It was about transparency in PDGA BOD proceedings and spending. It was a very interesting conversation before it got hijacked.

Oh yeah, MTL threatened me in a pm, I would report it, but I don't think it is a felony! :D

[QUOTE]


Oh so you do have it. Con Artist and Hi Jacker in one day. NICE

Brent, please remove that post and stay out of my pm's please.

Make a harder password. I was about to con some more people. Thanks alot

Can you pm me my password so that I can change it?

I don't know what's going on right now with the accounts of BapSter (Brent Petersen #19748) or PPorSomeoneElse (Craig Wesnofske #23673) but it's going to be looked into. We basically have an admission from Brent Petersen that multiple people (and non-PDGA members) are using that account which could be argued as theft of services. Do we also have people breaking into other's accounts? This may be a matter for the Disciplinary Committee.

Now this has got to be something for the DC since MTL complained. I voluntarily suspend myself from PDGA events for four months then, thus saving the pdga time and money on having to issue any consequences. Guess I don't need to send the check to BG to play in the Hippodrome next weekend. Have a nice holiday!

Sincerely,
Craig Wesnofske PDGA # 23673
Who hasn't decided whether or not to renew yet, but is obviously not being encouraged by the pdga mods..

Oh yeah, MTL threatened me in a pm



That is SLANDER.

I PMed you and asked for you to please stop commenting on my personal life and that whether or not I was in a relationship or not had was none of your business. I even finished the PM with "Hope to see ya at tournaments real soon."

B/c I do not believe in posting information from Private Messages, I will not say what you said. However, it was very distasteful towards me family and the girl I am seeing.

I'm pretty sure Brent gave BS's password to MTL without his permission and through tremendous powers of inductive reasoning MTL was able to induce PP's password thereby starting a month long bout of emesis. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;) How's your color Craiger? :D Regardless of your combined state of contagion, BS and PP, you are always welcome in the Yadkin County Disc Golf Association, pending payment of dues and approval of the entire board, of course. :cool:

Are you saying you did not DEMAND something from me? BTW, I encourage you to post our entire pming today. I'm sure people would find it entertaining. Thanks RD for the support. Long live the believers! Oh, and FREE BRENT PETERSKIN!

No problem BS/Mr. Skin/PP. If there's anything else I can do to muddy the water, please let me know. :cool:

has anyone else noticed that Brent's initials spell BAP?

has anyone else noticed that Brent's initials spell BAP?



...the anagram for which is A.P.B., at least in the Hickraw PD Manual. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I am pouring some JUice out right now for our fallen comrade, Mr. Brent Peterskin, who just got removed from the discussion board.

Dadgum that Hickraw PD is on top of cyber crime. :p

and somewhere in raleigh robert leotard is laughing... and picking his nose

Jeff, your thinly veiled disguise as Juff isn't working. They'll catch up with you dude. Just you wait and see. :eek:

and somewhere in raleigh robert leotard is laughing...



I am not laughing. I am saddened by this whole mess. I am sad that people care more about themselves than disc golf. I am sad that people would stoop so low to share a PDGA password and membership. I am sad that people do not see the worth and value of the PDGA within our great sport.

Laughing is the last thing I am doing.

"Laughing is the last thing I am doing"

......preceded by the nose picking then? :D

MTL, aren't you the guy who disgraced the pdga and this bored by trying to sell a phony alias for the bored on ebay?

MTL, aren't you the guy who disgraced the pdga and this bored by trying to sell a phony alias for the bored on ebay?



I knew someone would bring this up.

Yes, I made an an alias when having multiple personalities was allowed and PDGA membership was not required. Then, as a joke, I sold the name on ebay. The name was rightfully banned.

Just b/c I made a mistake and broke the rules in the past (and was rightfully punished for doing so) has no bearing over what other people can and cannot do.

wow I learned alot today

thanks guys

MTL, aren't you the guy who disgraced the pdga and this bored by trying to sell a phony alias for the bored on ebay?



I knew someone would bring this up.

Yes, I made an an alias when having multiple personalities was allowed and PDGA membership was not required. Then, as a joke, I sold the name on ebay. The name was rightfully banned.

Just b/c I made a mistake and broke the rules in the past (and was rightfully punished for doing so) has no bearing over what other people can and cannot do.



Isn't that a felony in Michigan ? (or is that Colorado I forget)

MTL, aren't you the guy who disgraced the pdga and this bored by trying to sell a phony alias for the bored on ebay?



I knew someone would bring this up.

Yes, I made an an alias when having multiple personalities was allowed and PDGA membership was not required. Then, as a joke, I sold the name on ebay. The name was rightfully banned.

Just b/c I made a mistake and broke the rules in the past (and was rightfully punished for doing so) has no bearing over what other people can and cannot do.



Isn't that a felony in Michigan ? (or is that Colorado I forget)



Well if it is, it's a good thing I'm from NC :D

Laughing is the last thing I am doing.



Well, that makes one of us. Please tell me someone was joking when they said that someone got banned for sharing a password.

But really, is it even possible to care more about yourself than about disc golf? Sheesh, you can't get more serious about anything. It's like a life and death battle out there every round. One time I had three bogeys in a row and my kids changed their last name and my dog ran away.

Brent was the only one who posted from the password. Robert is just mad because Brent called him out. Nothing that was said was banishment worthy anyway. How does a moderator prove that someone posted under anothers password? Maybe the banishment is the true offense here, or believing Robert.

Pretty easy to prove when the person admits to not being the person who is posting.

Unless of course he was trying to get you all worked up and lied to you. If that is the case, that you get banished for lying on the bored, why are you still on it?

I have not broken the rules other than the selling name issue for which I was punished.

To be honest Craig, I don't know why the moderators mentioned your name. I never said a word about you. Even though I am upset by your actions in forwarding a PM and your slanderous comments (both of which are not against the rules of the board I found out this week) and personally do not care for you, you still have every right to voice you opinion on here, as does Jeff Yahn, as does Jamie Arnold. As does every single current PDGA member. Even though I do not agree with a word of, as a PDGA member you have the right to voice that opinion. Brad Smith, who is not a PDGA member, does not have that right. That is what all of this is (or should I say was) about.

I find it funny when someone says "you aren't playing this tournament so you should not post on this thread." That juvenile and down right cowardly attitude does not add up to the freedoms we all enjoy as Americans.

Brad is a PDGA member FYI.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=15335

If he has renewed for 2007 then great. After the suspension he recieves for posting under another name, he should be more than welcome to express himself within the guidelines of the board, like the rest of us.

Apparently our paid staff at pdga do not enter data that fast.

Oh and BTW MTL, I love you, you big hairy, loud mouthed disc god that claims to have a girlfriend he hides from others knowing. :D

Hiding and choosing not tell others of my personal life are two different things.

Deleted by choice in lieu of Robert saying something nice to me via pm.

Apparently our paid staff at pdga do not enter data that fast.

the way i understand it is that our paid staff actually enters memberships extremely quickly into the Access-based system at the PDGA office. i have heard it explained that moving the data from the Access-based system over into the website is the part of the process that takes some time. but i'll bet ya if someone renewed then the Office has their info in the Access-based system very rapidly. i wish we had a modern web based membership system that supported the staff by eliminating inefficient extra steps. i can sympathize with Access users... i've spent the last fours years trying to eliminate Access-based systems from IT environments in favor of web-based, distributed systems. the Staff is

Deleted by choice in lieu of Robert saying something nice to me via pm.



haha thanks I guess.

I really am a good guy and want the best for everyone invovled in disc golf. I realize that there are some people who have no desire than to just play the game, and that is fine. However, people that detroment the game that I and others work very hard to improve really upsets me.

So when should Brad Smith be expecting posting privileges?

man yall argue over some of the stupidest **it ever. I feel like I am hearing my students argue over some petty stuff

Military jobs are the same.



Same issue. Now, one might argue that all salaries should be open and above board. I would argue that you would end up with the same situation you end up with in rare cases in some Unions and in some military situations, with some fairly incompetent people who are overpaid and protected by the structure. Please don't come back with a "you don't know what you're talking about." Woodworkers Union from 76 to 85, and I have a lot of family in the military.



noone is protected by the fact that salaries are open. they may be protected by other agreements between the union and the company. and there are of course incompetent overpaid people at companies that don't publish salary info. while there may be some disadvantages to publishing the salaries (i can't think of any substancial ones with regard to our organization) there are also real advantages. obvious advantages.

men are paid more than women for the same work in many places -- fortunately our military isn't one of them. should the pay of Congress be kept a secret? i think not!

I think congress should get a low salary and performance bonuses. And each state should have a seniority cap to force longtime members to retire.

subterfuge?

Actually it was completey about the US Congress. No double meanings intended.

Oh yeah, MTL threatened me in a pm



That is SLANDER.

I PMed you and asked for you to please stop commenting on my personal life and that whether or not I was in a relationship or not had was none of your business. I even finished the PM with "Hope to see ya at tournaments real soon."

B/c I do not believe in posting information from Private Messages, I will not say what you said. However, it was very distasteful towards me family and the girl I am seeing.



No its not slander. Slander applies to spoken, libel applies to written.

OK so the cops don't have to do a manhunt for me I will turn myself in now. My wife has made a post before under my account. I am sorry if this upsets your delicate nature Robert. Also, before you want to start your witch hunt for those who have let others post under their names you might want to stop and think of some people who have let their wives use their accounts to find out how events are going.

OK so the cops don't have to do a manhunt for me I will turn myself in now. My wife has made a post before under my account. I am sorry if this upsets your delicate nature Robert. Also, before you want to start your witch hunt for those who have let others post under their names you might want to stop and think of some people who have let their wives use their accounts to find out how events are going.



Unfortantly there will always be a "what if" scenario with all rules and laws. This is a tough situation that I'm glad I don't have to deal with. The Moderators do a lot of good work for the board and have to make tough decisions like these.

i post under alternate personalities. is that ok? i think it should be, cuz i really cant tell the difference at the time.

Plank eye your right, Guy's and Gal's i am proud of this sport, and proud of the PDGA. Whatever they need to keep this going, and however they spend it, even if its a mai tai in Honolulu, so be it. Robert I definetly respect your opinion, because i know your intentions. Scotty, Public Flogging at the next event. Let your wife follow on the web how you're doing. You should be ashamed, and for that you must play in my group for one round haha. Pdga, and all the people that make things happen, god bless you, and thanks.
Ok, who has the box

Rocky
Proud member of team FFF, disc golfers helping disc golfers

I'm not square, but will see you on the chilly morrow.

Oops, sorry for the thread drift. Back to some justified paranoya.

Actually it was completey about the US Congress. No double meanings intended.



i wasn't thinking of a double meaning so much as a strategy to get the talk about the openess of the PDGA off track by switching the focus to possible improvements to Congress ;)

you subversive you :cool:

man yall argue over some of the stupidest **it ever. I feel like I am hearing my students argue over some petty stuff

How old are your students?

in the interest of disclosure, who commenting on PDGA openess has a friend(s) or connection(s) on (with) the PDGA staff or BoD that was in place last year when the Constitution openess clause was done away with? also do you, or anyone you are friends with, receive a salary or stipend from the PDGA? (or have they received compensation from the PDGA in the past, or if it's top secret: might they receive one from the PDGA? :eek: ) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

while we know Pat is on record as having refused compensation for website work, we really have no way of knowing if he received compensation to agree to not comment on PDGA meetings until the minutes are published. it may be he has felt that is the best way to proceed to foster productive relationships with the BoD and staff, and he may also feel it makes sense to operate that way anyways, but i suppose he may have also received a top secret compensation stipend or stash of 1st run Z Buzzz's to get in line with the hush, hush protocol.

if anyone gets a summary of PDGA expenditures and sees "sandalman hush money stipend" please PM me asap. :p

disclosure info: Pat and i have become virtual friends after a bitter, hate-filled 2 meter war that was so ugly even the thread itself is now destroyed :eek: and that friendship seems to me to have a lot to do with a mutual natural tendency toward openess and transparency except when special circumstances demand otherwise (or when bitter debate skews perspective).

i thought we were okay even then because we both understood that we were both still holding back :eek:

yeah, you wanted to hang me from 2.1 meters and me you from 1.9m /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

verbally, we stayed pretty darn civil even though underneathe it all we were trying to trounce one another :eek: :p :D

Civility is more often seen in face to face meetings. What happens here is too often way beyond the limits of civilized discussion.

man yall argue over some of the stupidest **it ever. I feel like I am hearing my students argue over some petty stuff

How old are your students?



13-18